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F3 Front Sprocket Inspection

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I haven't read all the posts, so forgive me if this has been covered.

I havent heard of this issue in Australia - doesn't mean it hasn't occurred ... but...

Here we don't have your larger rear sprocket or longer belt - given earlier discussion about belt harmonics etc I was just wondering whether this difference in belt may contribute to an explanation ? Or not ?
 
I feel your pain! I have been through this twice. Unfortunately for me, I did not catch the issue before it went out. Dealerships won't do anything without BRP direction while under warranty.

Same process each time:
a. 1-2 days to troubleshoot the issue and report to BRP for direction (it is easy to see the failure!)
b. 2-3 days to hear back from BRP
c. 5-7 days to get part
d. 1-2 days to install

First time it was 4 week before I got it back!!!! I agree that dealerships should have at least 1 part in-stock!

I just got home from my dealer. He told me my front sprocket is shot and will need replacement. He never ordered a new sprocket when I made the appointment 2 weeks ago. I do not know if not ordering this was a BRP or dealer mistake. Now I have to wait till the new part comes in, make an appointment and go back. I feel this was an unnecessary and easily correctable issue on both BRP and my dealer. They know as my dealer indicated this is a problem so the dealerships should have at least one sprocket in stock ready to go......but they do not.
 
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THANK YOU

Howdy folks,
Just a few thoughts..

Per BRP the sprocket has been updated and should not fail again after replacement. The BRP technical case representative recommended putting loctite 660 on the splines when replacing the sprocket. This is not in the FSM that I have found and is not referenced in any official BRP documentation that I have seen. (TST) Frankly, the loctite is likely the solution to the problem unless they have made the sprockets harder. I have not seen shaft damage on any spyder yet, either with a complete failure or prior to complete failure, however those with more than one failure bear closer inspection in this area certainly.
Per the FSM the bolt is a one time use fastener so I would exercise caution with the removing and then reinstalling it just to check splines. Personally, every sprocket that we have seen fail has had the red powder on the face of the sprocket. I would lean away from putting moly on the splines as you would with the splines on a shaft drive bike as some have mentioned as that is really a totally different application. There really isn't a reason to remove the sprocket frequently, and when that time comes heat will be required.

Personally, if a customer brings a spyder in and has evidence of impending failure we will replace the sprocket. It seems a little ridiculous to expect the customer to be stranded on the side of the road before taking care of the issue.

Your friendly service manager/Spyder technician...


THANK YOU my friend....
i just hope i never have to come see you for this reason again....
you are the BEST....
Dan P
SPYD3R
 
So what is the correct installation of the sprocket? Part number on the outside with lip on the inside or visa versa? What does BRP say is the life expectancy of the part? With the amount of miles I drive each year (over 20,000 miles) I will have to replace it every year at the rate mine have failed (I'm on the third sprocket) Will BRP continue to replace the sprocket once my warranty expires since it is a known failure? Curious minds what to know!

The X's go to the inside, part id and date to the outside. It is not interchangeable as the sprocket has offset. I wouldn't look for BRP to provide a life expectancy for a part. Any OEM is going to reticent to provide the stick a customer can use to beat them up with. There are too many variables to deal with. ie Was it installed correctly? Were the shaft splines properly inspected by the dealership? etc.

I wouldn't get to bogged down by what is stamped into your sprocket, other than the date perhaps. 705502131 isn't and never was a part number as in something you can walk into your dealership and order. All of our 2017 spyders have that same number. 705502134 is the current part number.

It is up to your dealer to choose whether or not to stock replacement parts for this or any other issue. Fwiw, BRP will not autoship parts for any recall or bulletin much less an issue that they to my knowledge have not really officially identified as a major problem.
 
Thanks very much for taking the time to post this Eether.

As you may know, I am a big supporter of BRP Care as they have always responded promptly to any questions, but I now find myself questioning their procedures and past answers.

There is one very, very concerning aspect of all this (beside customers being stranded in the middle of nowhere:shocked:)......BRP Care have responded to 2 specific questions about this, stating in the first reply that that they have consulted a technician and the X goes to the outside, and in the second email that they have consulted a technician and it doesn’t matter which way around it goes.......and both of these answers appear incorrect. See below. So you really have to question exactly who BRP Care are consulting for their info. It obviously needs to be a single very senior technician, which does not appear to be the case here. It would be advantageous if BRP Care could, at a senior level, review the answers that have been provided to determine if they are due to a misunderstanding or if they are indeed incorrect (or correct;))

I will indeed email this to BRP Care as well. This is just to keep forum members in the loop.

Pete

Ok, I just received an email from Aurelie at BRP Care regarding if my new sprocket was on backwards. I quote: "the front sprocket cannot be installed wrong-way-around, it would not fit. There is an offset which prevents this from happening. The X shows the outside."
This is what BRP emailed me about the picture I sent them when asked about the sprocket being installed backwards:
"one of my technician verified the picture and told me that either side the sprocket is installed that should not make any difference."
 
The X's go to the inside, part id and date to the outside. It is not interchangeable as the sprocket has offset. I wouldn't look for BRP to provide a life expectancy for a part. Any OEM is going to reticent to provide the stick a customer can use to beat them up with. There are too many variables to deal with. ie Was it installed correctly? Were the shaft splines properly inspected by the dealership? etc.

I wouldn't get to bogged down by what is stamped into your sprocket, other than the date perhaps. 705502131 isn't and never was a part number as in something you can walk into your dealership and order. All of our 2017 spyders have that same number. 705502134 is the current part number.

It is up to your dealer to choose whether or not to stock replacement parts for this or any other issue. Fwiw, BRP will not autoship parts for any recall or bulletin much less an issue that they to my knowledge have not really officially identified as a major problem.

2134 is the # on the box BUT 2131 is the # stamped on the part- This has been noted more than once and was the case with the one I Just got at the dealer.
 
While compiling info it would probably be helpful to also post what appears to be a manufacturing date that is right below the part number that is stamped on the sprocket. The one in the video Doc just posted was 03/15. The one that is on Sarge's F3 was 12/14. I couldn't make out the number on the other sprocket pics elsewhere.
 
My thanks to Eether54 for posting the correct alignment of the sprocket. It is a shame that Spyder F3-S and I received incorrect information from BRP Care. You would think that they would be consulting with BRP engineers that would know the correct alignment or they just don't care and want to brush off our questions. In my opinion this gives BRP Care a black eye and leads me to believe we can't trust anything they say. If BRP Care is reading this they probably won't respond as they will not want to touch this subject with a 10 foot pole. I love my Spyder but if Honda were to come out with a factory reverse trike I would be on it in a New York minute!!! I have contacted another dealer and he has received authorization from BRP to correctly align my sprocket and replace if needed and put on a new bolt with the locktite. Just waiting for the parts to come in.
 
I just got home from my dealer. He told me my front sprocket is shot and will need replacement. He never ordered a new sprocket when I made the appointment 2 weeks ago. I do not know if not ordering this was a BRP or dealer mistake. Now I have to wait till the new part comes in, make an appointment and go back. I feel this was an unnecessary and easily correctable issue on both BRP and my dealer. They know as my dealer indicated this is a problem so the dealerships should have at least one sprocket in stock ready to go......but they do not.

Guess you get to add yourself to the negligible number of Spyders suffering from this over hyped failure. ;)

CJ JAX
 
I have been doing some thinking yet again and the fitment of the splines are critical for lack of wear. Once the coating is beat up enough on the pulley, it gets down to the material and that allows rust from moisture, which makes it worse. Now, two thoughts about using Loc-tite is that it will fill in around any areas that are not as tight as they should be. What are you going to do if it needs removed? It will take heat to remove it. Where the shaft comes through the transmission there is a rubber seal and that heat could damage that. The other factor is that if the sprocket failed with it coated it would strip that away as it did so. That would still leave it on the shaft and I'm not sure how easy it would be to clean the grooves for a replacement. Also, using moly seems to defeat the concept of fixed spline system. I agree that if the spline moved in and out in it's operation, it would be critical to be properly lubed. However, it does not. Once it is put in place it is there with no side movement.
I then got to thinking about the method on the rear sprocket of using rubber bumpers to absorb the torque that eliminates any excessive wear on the drive line at that end. Ideally, they need to make a mini one of those for the front sprocket. It would absorb the shifting "clunk" and solve the spline failure problem.
What I'm thinking is that by painting the splines of the pulley with RTV, then sealing the back and then the front on install with RTV also would give it some absorption of what is wearing it. The RTV would fill in any gaps, harden up and do basically the same job as what the rubber bumpers do in the rear. At the very least it will coat the splines on the pulley and help to keep them from loosing their protective coating. And a moisture barrier is going to help. Removal and cleaning would be simplified also, as the RTV doesn't require a lot to be removed.
Think I'm going to try that on the Daytona. I'll shoot a video when I do.
 
I have been doing some thinking yet again and the fitment of the splines are critical for lack of wear. Once the coating is beat up enough on the pulley, it gets down to the material and that allows rust from moisture, which makes it worse. Now, two thoughts about using Loc-tite is that it will fill in around any areas that are not as tight as they should be. What are you going to do if it needs removed? It will take heat to remove it. Where the shaft comes through the transmission there is a rubber seal and that heat could damage that. The other factor is that if the sprocket failed with it coated it would strip that away as it did so. That would still leave it on the shaft and I'm not sure how easy it would be to clean the grooves for a replacement. Also, using moly seems to defeat the concept of fixed spline system. I agree that if the spline moved in and out in it's operation, it would be critical to be properly lubed. However, it does not. Once it is put in place it is there with no side movement.
I then got to thinking about the method on the rear sprocket of using rubber bumpers to absorb the torque that eliminates any excessive wear on the drive line at that end. Ideally, they need to make a mini one of those for the front sprocket. It would absorb the shifting "clunk" and solve the spline failure problem.
What I'm thinking is that by painting the splines of the pulley with RTV, then sealing the back and then the front on install with RTV also would give it some absorption of what is wearing it. The RTV would fill in any gaps, harden up and do basically the same job as what the rubber bumpers do in the rear. At the very least it will coat the splines on the pulley and help to keep them from loosing their protective coating. And a moisture barrier is going to help. Removal and cleaning would be simplified also, as the RTV doesn't require a lot to be removed.
Think I'm going to try that on the Daytona. I'll shoot a video when I do.
Thank you Doc! I always like your ideas about things.

My thoughts were the same about using the 660 Loctite. The technical sheet stated 250 Celsius to disassemble parts after using the 660. Trouble is, 250 Celsius equals 482 degrees Fahrenheit which as you stated would destroy the shaft seal.

I did very much appreciate EETHER54 comments about using the 660 as well as sharing his thoughts and experience in dealing with this sprocket situation.

I also very much appreciate your thoughts along with everyone else's that has contributed to this thread.

We have now presented several ways to hopefully improve this sprocket situation but until we actually test out the different methods to see how they work out over time and miles we are still left with a puzzle to solve.

As for me personally, I still favor the M-77 Moly treatment with the additional step that you added of sealing it off on both ends using the RTV.

I hear what you're saying about the sliding movement on the shaft drive motorcycles compared to the fixed position of the sprocket on the F3's but there is still the hammering effect on the splines to deal with and the moly stopped the wear on the splines on the bikes I personally used it on.

When I as well as many others had to replace chewed up splines we did so with used parts that were far from fitting as tight as they did when new. The moly stopped the wear completely whereas the parts were failing in less than 20,000 miles without it.
And anytime I mention moly I am specifically talking about the M-77 as other moly products were tried and failed in time.

Thanks to all for your input and info, much appreciated!!!
 
What is

Thank you Doc! I always like your ideas about things.

My thoughts were the same about using the 660 Loctite. The technical sheet stated 250 Celsius to disassemble parts after using the 660. Trouble is, 250 Celsius equals 482 degrees Fahrenheit which as you stated would destroy the shaft seal.

I did very much appreciate EETHER54 comments about using the 660 as well as sharing his thoughts and experience in dealing with this sprocket situation.

I also very much appreciate your thoughts along with everyone else's that has contributed to this thread.

We have now presented several ways to hopefully improve this sprocket situation but until we actually test out the different methods to see how they work out over time and miles we are still left with a puzzle to solve.

As for me personally, I still favor the M-77 Moly treatment with the additional step that you added of sealing it off on both ends using the RTV.

I hear what you're saying about the sliding movement on the shaft drive motorcycles compared to the fixed position of the sprocket on the F3's but there is still the hammering effect on the splines to deal with and the moly stopped the wear on the splines on the bikes I personally used it on.

When I as well as many others had to replace chewed up splines we did so with used parts that were far from fitting as tight as they did when new. The moly stopped the wear completely whereas the parts were failing in less than 20,000 miles without it.
And anytime I mention moly I am specifically talking about the M-77 as other moly products were tried and failed in time.

Thanks to all for your input and info, much appreciated!!!
Sorry, but I need to ask what is RTV?
Bike going to,the shop next week to replace the sprocket and bolt. At this point, not really sure what directions to give the mechanic (he is a good wrencher and very well trained).
thanks to all for your thoughts on this issue.
 
Sorry, but I need to ask what is RTV?
Bike going to,the shop next week to replace the sprocket and bolt. At this point, not really sure what directions to give the mechanic (he is a good wrencher and very well trained).
thanks to all for your thoughts on this issue.
RTV = Room Temperature Vulcanization sealants, or simply known as a gasket maker. There are many brands, different colors and chemical makeup for a variety of different uses.
Here is the one I seem to use the most. https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-821...pID=51L1E4q5CaL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
 
I wonder if we are going to see some RT issues too?

This was just posted in a new thread by AbNormy......

Pete


Trying to figure out how to post pics of my front pulley wondering what causes it on a 12 RT. Is pulley working it's way loose?
rust


 
What is the maximum torque that the 10.9 M bolt will take? As previously mentioned, this same failure happened on a significant number of early Spyders. When I bought my GS new I was already aware of this failure. I purchased a new OEM bolt, which comes with thread locker already applied, and torqued it to 115 ftlb. As I recall, that torque was slightly higher than what I found for a bolt of that spec - my thinking was to add an extra 5% due to the fairly thick thread locker on the threads causing reasonable resistance when screwing it in, even tho the Spyder bulletin said 90 ftlb. It's been there of 8 years, 90,000km and is still not covered in red dust. BRP's stated in a service bulletin at the time that 'inadequate clamping force' was the cause of the failures.
 
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Sorry, but I need to ask what is RTV?
Bike going to,the shop next week to replace the sprocket and bolt. At this point, not really sure what directions to give the mechanic (he is a good wrencher and very well trained).
thanks to all for your thoughts on this issue.

Might turn him on to this thread. Get him up to speed. Might help...
 
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