F3 Front Sprocket Inspection

[nhoj]

I will call them on Tuesday and calmly explain the problem and go from there.

Did you happen to speak to your dealer yesterday about this ??

 

[TexasZ]

When you hold the sprocket in your hand its easy to see the x's go on the engine side because there is about a 1/2 inch indentation so the sprocket fits close to the body of the engine and there is hardly ANY torque on the engine shaft- The other way the sprocket is a 1/2 inch farther away from the engine and a LOT more lateral torque is being placed on the engine which could mean damaging the engine part- which means pulling the engine and big $$$.
After seeing the rust on mine and then the pictures with the bolt Out showing the sprocket being like New- I would advise people that are worried by this thread to Just buy the bolt First and take the bolt off and inspect- If its fine Put on new Bolt. If its damaged THEN order a sprocket or bring to dealer.
I think I wasted $105 But I guess I can save the sprocket and check again after about 5,000 miles to be safe.

Excellent info, thank you Sarge! I would like to encourage you and others when inspecting their sprockets to apply the M-77 moly to the splines while you have the bolt out and sprocket pulled. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-OE...ash=item19fc4b5754:g:WAsAAOSwNSxU7OgC&vxp=mtr
Cover the bolt hole with a piece of tape so no moly gets into it. Note that the directions on the back of the tube say to "Apply a thin film to clean surfaces" but it is better to apply a thicker coating covering the splines on the sprocket only. That way the excess can be cleaned off as it is pushed to the outside during assembly onto the shaft.
Even one better is to do the extra step of sealing it off as Doc explained...

I did some research on spline failures and there is a surprising amount of information. One thing that surprised me was that the "red Rust" is not only a sign of a soon to happen failure, it also quickens it into happening. From what I'm reading, spline wear is normal. Everything wears. What they are saying is that when the wear removes the protective coating, moisture can get in and creates rust. The rust is extremely harmful to the splines and can really shorten the life. So what about sealing the spline area?
I'm thinking that applying the moly lubricant on the splines of the pulley, then just before install applying a beard of RTV sealer around the shaft just about where the splines end and the pulley will seat. This will be sticky enough for a minute or so to stick to the pulley, making an inside seal. As someone else had mentioned, by applying the moly to just the pulley it would remove an excess as it slid on the shaft. Once installed, cleaning the outer area thoroughly will remove any excess moly, then apply a bead of RTV in the seam between the two parts. The last step would be to install and torque the bolt. The RTV will not cause any difference in the torque value and when done you will have completely airtight, waterproof, lubricated spline area that would also be sealed so that the moly couldn't get out. We use RTV in harmonic balancer applications in automotive all the time.
Removal would also not be an issue as the RTV is not that hard to remove.

Also, there was some talk about improper tempering of the material, but we have no control over that. IMHO this above procedure should give us the best chance of the splines lasting......

Anybody see any downside that I've missed?

 

[JKMSPYDER]

Did you happen to speak to your dealer yesterday about this ??​

​Yes I did. They said they would get in touch with BRP and let me know when they get a reply. Also a friend of mine in SC asked his service manager to contact BRP too. The service manager said he would let my friend know when he received a reply.

 

[jcthorne]

NOT SO.....
there are no less than 2, maybe a 3rd.... mine current sprocket ends in 2131, and the original, the one that failed, and others i've seen end in 2134...
Dan P
SPYD3R

2134 is the part number you order for the boxed replacement part version. When you take the sprocket out of the box it will have 2131 on it. 2131 is the only sprocket I have seen on any F3 from my very early 2015 to a very recent 2017 F3L.

 

[jcthorne]

Ok, I just received an email from Aurelie at BRP Care regarding if my new sprocket was on backwards. I quote: "the front sprocket cannot be installed wrong-way-around, it would not fit. There is an offset which prevents this from happening. The X shows the outside." So I am now relieved that my sprocket is on the correct way. I will print their email for my records.

She is half right. There is an offset but it will not prevent anything. If the X belonged on the outside, every F3 that has rolled off the assembly line had the sprocket installed backwards.

IE the person that sent you the email is mistaken and does not work on spyders.

 

[Pirate looks at --]

Question

So you are replacing a defective part with the exact same defective part? Has BRP weighed in on this issue at all? It sounds like it is happening to all models not just F3s but F3Ls and F3Ts as well.

 

[jcthorne]

Since there is only about 15lbs max pressure on the Vibration Dampers, it is not going to effect anything with the splines.

Actually it does. It greatly reduces impact loading from the belt harmonics.

 

[TexasZ]

So you are replacing a defective part with the exact same defective part? Has BRP weighed in on this issue at all? It sounds like it is happening to all models not just F3s but F3Ls and F3Ts as well.

I don't think the part is defective as much as the problem being caused by assembling the sprocket onto the shaft dry. Assembly grease such as the M-77 Moly needs to be used. Doc also mentioned an additional step to seal out moisture.

I agree with your logic though noting that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. LOL

 

[zuni]

so while all are taking time to deal with the apoplexy over the part number issue
has anyone looked at whether the problem occurs with or without a belt tensioner installed?

I installed the tensioner after the first failure and still had a second failure.

CJ JAX

 

[cmarsala]

Sprocket

I still haven't heard back from BRP about all the info I sent them, I'm going to give it a few more day's and resend! In the mean time the Moly lube is the best bet if you're fortunate enough not to had yours wear out. Mine I know is in good shape so I'm going to pull my sprocket and use the Moly, going to use red Loctite on the bolt, I don't think applying sealant will help as you can't seal the backside of the sprocket. Sorry Doc!:doorag:

 

[SpyderF3-s]

BRP Response

This is what BRP emailed me about the picture I sent them when asked about the sprocket being installed backwards:
"one of my technician verified the picture and told me that either side the sprocket is installed that should not make any difference."
:banghead::banghead::banghead: The original sprocket had the numbers on the outside. I agree with others that there should be a tech bulletin as to the correct installation of the part.


At what point could this continuous failing part be determined as a non fixable issue and be declared a "lemon". 3 or four times? How many miles is acceptable? Does the Spyder follow the same "lemon" laws as a car or truck? Something to thing about.

 

[old Timer]

This is totally unbelievable, Motorcycles have been using final belt drives for years, with some models since the late 70's and early 80's. Even used on the 170 HP Polaris Sling Shot.


These Spyders are the first motorcycle application that seem to be a problem.



Do not understand.:banghead:

 

[Roadster Renovations]

This is what BRP emailed me about the picture I sent them when asked about the sprocket being installed backwards:
"one of my technician verified the picture and told me that either side the sprocket is installed that should not make any difference."
:banghead::banghead::banghead: The original sprocket had the numbers on the outside. I agree with others that there should be a tech bulletin as to the correct installation of the part.
View attachment 155411

At what point could this continuous failing part be determined as a non fixable issue and be declared a "lemon". 3 or four times? How many miles is acceptable? Does the Spyder follow the same "lemon" laws as a car or truck? Something to thing about.

That is just crazy what they told you. There has to be a "right" way to install. Wonder why they say it doesn't matter?

I will say this; anyone that has one fail should insist on them sealing it from water. Any wear on the shaft from the first failure, even within spec, will allow water to get in the cracks, shortening the life of the new sprocket.

 

[Road-Kill]

I'm sitting here at my dealer for both the 18,000+ mile service and front sprocket inspection. I'm not a betting man but I'm thinking he is not going to replace it today. Thoughts? Let's bet on this for fun.

 

[Sarge707]

I'm sitting here at my dealer for both the 18,000+ mile service and front sprocket inspection. I'm not a betting man but I'm thinking he is not going to replace it today. Thoughts? Let's bet on this for fun.

I would INSIST on looking at it with the bolt out- So you can verify the condition.

 

[EETHER54]

Howdy folks,
Just a few thoughts..

Per BRP the sprocket has been updated and should not fail again after replacement. The BRP technical case representative recommended putting loctite 660 on the splines when replacing the sprocket. This is not in the FSM that I have found and is not referenced in any official BRP documentation that I have seen. (TST) Frankly, the loctite is likely the solution to the problem unless they have made the sprockets harder. I have not seen shaft damage on any spyder yet, either with a complete failure or prior to complete failure, however those with more than one failure bear closer inspection in this area certainly.
Per the FSM the bolt is a one time use fastener so I would exercise caution with the removing and then reinstalling it just to check splines. Personally, every sprocket that we have seen fail has had the red powder on the face of the sprocket. I would lean away from putting moly on the splines as you would with the splines on a shaft drive bike as some have mentioned as that is really a totally different application. There really isn't a reason to remove the sprocket frequently, and when that time comes heat will be required.

Personally, if a customer brings a spyder in and has evidence of impending failure we will replace the sprocket. It seems a little ridiculous to expect the customer to be stranded on the side of the road before taking care of the issue.

Your friendly service manager/Spyder technician...

 

[SpyderF3-s]

So what is the correct installation of the sprocket? Part number on the outside with lip on the inside or visa versa? What does BRP say is the life expectancy of the part? With the amount of miles I drive each year (over 20,000 miles) I will have to replace it every year at the rate mine have failed (I'm on the third sprocket) Will BRP continue to replace the sprocket once my warranty expires since it is a known failure? Curious minds what to know!

Howdy folks,
Just a few thoughts..

Per BRP the sprocket has been updated and should not fail again after replacement. The BRP technical case representative recommended putting loctite 660 on the splines when replacing the sprocket. This is not in the FSM that I have found and is not referenced in any official BRP documentation that I have seen. (TST) Frankly, the loctite is likely the solution to the problem unless they have made the sprockets harder. I have not seen shaft damage on any spyder yet, either with a complete failure or prior to complete failure, however those with more than one failure bear closer inspection in this area certainly.
Per the FSM the bolt is a one time use fastener so I would exercise caution with the removing and then reinstalling it just to check splines. Personally, every sprocket that we have seen fail has had the red powder on the face of the sprocket. I would lean away from putting moly on the splines as you would with the splines on a shaft drive bike as some have mentioned as that is really a totally different application. There really isn't a reason to remove the sprocket frequently, and when that time comes heat will be required.

Personally, if a customer brings a spyder in and has evidence of impending failure we will replace the sprocket. It seems a little ridiculous to expect the customer to be stranded on the side of the road before taking care of the issue.

Your friendly service manager/Spyder technician...

 

[Road-Kill]

Waited two weeks for nothing.

I would INSIST on looking at it with the bolt out- So you can verify the condition.

I just got home from my dealer. He told me my front sprocket is shot and will need replacement. He never ordered a new sprocket when I made the appointment 2 weeks ago. I do not know if not ordering this was a BRP or dealer mistake. Now I have to wait till the new part comes in, make an appointment and go back. I feel this was an unnecessary and easily correctable issue on both BRP and my dealer. They know as my dealer indicated this is a problem so the dealerships should have at least one sprocket in stock ready to go......but they do not.

 

[jcthorne]

Howdy folks,
Just a few thoughts..

Per BRP the sprocket has been updated and should not fail again after replacement. The BRP technical case representative recommended putting loctite 660 on the splines when replacing the sprocket. This is not in the FSM that I have found and is not referenced in any official BRP documentation that I have seen. (TST) Frankly, the loctite is likely the solution to the problem unless they have made the sprockets harder. I have not seen shaft damage on any spyder yet, either with a complete failure or prior to complete failure, however those with more than one failure bear closer inspection in this area certainly.
Per the FSM the bolt is a one time use fastener so I would exercise caution with the removing and then reinstalling it just to check splines. Personally, every sprocket that we have seen fail has had the red powder on the face of the sprocket. I would lean away from putting moly on the splines as you would with the splines on a shaft drive bike as some have mentioned as that is really a totally different application. There really isn't a reason to remove the sprocket frequently, and when that time comes heat will be required.

Personally, if a customer brings a spyder in and has evidence of impending failure we will replace the sprocket. It seems a little ridiculous to expect the customer to be stranded on the side of the road before taking care of the issue.

Your friendly service manager/Spyder technician...

What is this supposed updated sprocket? Current part number ends in 2134 and is the same sprocket installed at the factory on my very early 2015F3S. If there is a new part number, its not in the catalog yet. At least as of 2 weeks ago.

 

[Peteoz]

What is this supposed updated sprocket? Current part number ends in 2134 and is the same sprocket installed at the factory on my very early 2015F3S. If there is a new part number, its not in the catalog yet. At least as of 2 weeks ago.

BRP doesn’t actually say that the new sprocket has been made available yet, JC. It may still be in the manufacturing stage.

Pete