Will Using 87 Octane impact performance?

[JoeyL]

Which damage I don't recall anyone ever reporting on this forum.

So I reread my post but couldn't find the part where I said that other Syder owners have reported this problem over and over. It was a general comment about the damage that pre-ignition can cause. I thought that the way I stated it was better than "pinging is bad."

 

[Lew L]

Detonation Vs. Pre-ignition

.

Just as a side bar to this discussion:

Pre-ignition ( caused by a hot spot) and detonation ( caused by the end gasses exploding, not burning) are somewhat different. Larger bores where the end gasses are compressed by the flame front are more prone to detonation ( often causing the top ring land to collapse. Smaller bores or dual spark plug motors are less prone to detonation. Both sound like knocking and both are BAD for our motors. Glad our :spyder2:'s have the anti-knock technology.

Lew L

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

So I reread my post but couldn't find the part where I said that other Syder owners have reported this problem over and over. It was a general comment about the damage that pre-ignition can cause. I thought that the way I stated it was better than "pinging is bad."

You didn't. Tied with some of the other comments, your comment about pinging implied to me that by using 87 octane we risk having pinging in our engines, and thus the resulting damage. All I'm saying is the since no one on the forum who regularly uses 87 octane has reported any engine damage, that indicates that 87 octane must not be causing pinging. Based on that one indicator, or the absence of it, 87 must be OK to use since the main reason for not using it, pinging, is not being experienced by Spyder owners.

 

[JoeyL]

You didn't. Tied with some of the other comments, your comment about pinging implied to me that by using 87 octane we risk having pinging in our engines, and thus the resulting damage. All I'm saying is the since no one on the forum who regularly uses 87 octane has reported any engine damage, that indicates that 87 octane must not be causing pinging. Based on that one indicator, or the absence of it, 87 must be OK to use since the main reason for not using it, pinging, is not being experienced by Spyder owners.

Then we agree. We all have different ways of conveying the same message. I split the middle and use 89. I see no reason to not use 87, and to be honest if the price keeps heading north, I may have to use 87 so there's enough cash left to pay the mortgage!

 

[ARtraveler]

RE: pinging: I have used 87 in five out of seven Spyders. I have NEVER noticed a ping or had poor performance of the engine. If I twist it, it gets up and gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo's.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

That's not quite the full picture. The likelihood of hot spots which act as glow plugs is a factor. If the combustion chamber has sharp or small features that stay hot from one compression stroke to the next you will need higher octane to avoid pre-ignition regardless of compression. Also, from what I find there is not an exact relationship between compression ratio and octane requirement. An engine will tolerate a range of octanes for a particular compression ratio. So my assessment is there are two main factors in why those of us who do so, successfully use 87 octane in our Spyders with no adverse effects. First, the combustion chamber is a very smoothly finished with no sharp features that stay hot from one cycle to the next. The second is the engine design and compression ratio are such that it tolerates 87 quite well, but 87 may very well be at or near the minimum octane required. 91 octane probably falls near the midpoint of the best octane range for our Rotax engines.

My experience from 2016 and 2017 does not support the argument that ignition timing is retarded, and so power is reduced, when we use 87 octane in our Spyder engines. If you look closely at the graphs in my thread linked to in post #28 above, you will see I had a very slightly better mpg when using 87 octane.

Now, an interesting question came to mind while I was looking for info about compression ratio vs octane required. Ethanol is an octane booster. I believe most all of us, if not all, who regularly use 87 octane use E10. Has anyone here used 87 octane ethanol free gas? If so, have you experienced any pre-ignition issues at all? I wonder if ethanol is what makes it possible for us to use 87 octane without problems.

What we really need is a comparison of the combustion chamber of two engines with 50,000+ miles on them, one having run 87 its whole life and the other 91 its whole life. Then we would have objective data to support or discount the use of 87 octane.

Well re-garding " NON - Ethyl " 87 octane gas ..... I'm pretty sure I found and used some in Springfield Mo. about 5 yrs ago at a Spydefest .... and didn't notice any " pinging " or performance loss >>>>>> Mike

 

[2dogs]

The 1330's come to us so detuned how in the heck would we know if there was any performance loss/gain with any grade/octane fuel? The ECM/ECU makes up the difference for whatever we fuel up with. Or at least it's supposed to, whether it's instantly or whether it takes its own time doing so.

 

[daz]

My 2018 Roadster operator's guide recommends:

Premium unleaded gasoline with an AKI octane rating of 91, or an Ron octane rating of 95.

I follow the recommendations of the manufacturer .

 

[rjinaz86323]

I run nothing but 87 in my 2018 F3 Limited. Came home last summer from St Joe, Missouri to Arizona. Three days, all over 95 (sometimes over 100). Rode 5 over speed limit including freeway. No detonation of any kind.

 

[2dogs]

I run nothing but 87 in my 2018 F3 Limited. Came home last summer from St Joe, Missouri to Arizona. Three days, all over 95 (sometimes over 100). Rode 5 over speed limit including freeway. No detonation of any kind.

Wow, at that speed if your 1330 did experience any detonation you would've never heard it. Just curious if you kept track, what was your MPG if I might ask?

 

[EdMat]

Wow, at that speed if your 1330 did experience any detonation you would've never heard it. Just curious if you kept track, what was your MPG if I might ask?

I think he was referring to temperature.

 

[2dogs]

I think he was referring to temperature.

:roflblack::roflblack: Oh thank GOD, I was hoping so. Thanks for the clue. :thumbup:

 

[troop]

This is NOT to spark a fuel debate. I've always felt that the use of 87 octane was a non issue. That said, I just started getting my BRP info after purchasing my new 2022 S2S a couple weeks ago. Here is their take on fuel, direct from BRP.

By Can-Am On-Road

It is always best to refer to the Operator's Guide for your Can-Am for fuel requirements for your specific model and engine. For Spyder models, your machine will perform to its highest potential and best performance on 91-octane fuel with no ethanol. That said, you will not damage anything if you use 87-octane fuel with no more than 10% ethanol, it just won’t perform top its full potential. Ryker models perform well on 87-octane fuels. Do NOT use E15 or any fuel with more that 10% ethanol in any recreational vehicle as this will damage the engine.


Using the E10 ethanol fuel isn’t all that bad, but letting it sit in the fuel tank and the fuel system can lead to long term problems. Typically, you do not want to leave ethanol fuel in your Can-Am Spyder or your Can-Am Ryker for more than 30 days. The reason for this is due to the water-absorbing nature of ethanol fuels and the corrosive nature of the ethanol. So, if you do choose to use fuel with ethanol, try to add a fuel stabilizer if you will be leaving the fuel in the vehicle for longer than 30 days. If the vehicle is going into storage for a longer period of time then it is pretty much mandatory to treat the fuel with the appropriate heavier dosage of stabilizer to prevent problems when you go to start and use the vehicle.

 

[AndysF3S]

I use 91 octane in my 2022 F3S which I purchased new several months ago. Up until last Spring I could purchase 91 without ethanol at Costco and other places locally, now it may contain ethanol according to the sticker on the pumps.
There are several reasons I try and stay away from ethanol in the gasoline; it has a lower caloric value and produces less energy per combustion cycle than gasoline. In other words you have to inject more ethanol to produce the same power but it does have a higher Octane number so you can get more power from ethanol than gas if you are programmed to run more ethanol or E85. The second reason that I try and flush 87 w ethanol out of the fuel tank for storage is because it is hygroscopic (tends to absorb moisture from the air) and the longer it sits the more moisture it absorbs; sometimes getting to the point of fuel separation which becomes corrosive and damages the fuel system. Lawn mowers, weed eater, garden tools that sit for the winter season can all wind up with the beautiful green sludge in the sediment bowl. I store all my small engines with fuel stabilizer and 91 if I can.
On the Spyder,Ryker, Seadoos and Skidoos that are fuel injected; the knock sensor is so sensitive that you will not hear ping or knock before the ECM pulls timing so the chance of preignition damage is slim unless the unit has sat for some period of time. Any gasoline that sits for longer periods of time will lose octane and after several months "may ping" if the ECM cannot adjust the timing enough to prevent it.
Running 91 in and 87 octane rated engine doesn't produce more power and may produce a bit less because the anti knock additive results in a slightly cooler burn.
Running 87 in a 91 rated engine should produce less power because the ECM will be pulling timing because the increase in compression ratio results in a tendency towards preignition.
Hotter intake air temperature contains less oxygen and therefore cannot make as much power because the ECM adjusts the fuel ratio to a leaner ratio. That is why turbo charged and supercharged engines usually run intercoolers to reduce intake air temp. Your ride may produce more power in the evening when the air temp. drops.

Bottom line is its your machine and you are free to run whatever Octane works for you. As the owners manual states 87 should not cause any damage to your engine. Enjoy your ride while you can before it is mandated to be battery powered. JMO

 

[troop]

When I use 87 octane, it is during the active riding season. Come near the end of the season (October in WI), I switch to 91/non ethanol. Spyder doesn't sit too long during the peak riding season.

 

[BajaRon]

I think he was referring to temperature.

Really! You mean that most don't ride at 95-100 mph on a regular basis! No wonder everyone seems to be going so slow in the Interstates these days!

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

This is NOT to spark a fuel debate. I've always felt that the use of 87 octane was a non issue. That said, I just started getting my BRP info after purchasing my new 2022 S2S a couple weeks ago. Here is their take on fuel, direct from BRP.

By Can-Am On-Road

It is always best to refer to the Operator's Guide for your Can-Am for fuel requirements for your specific model and engine. For Spyder models, your machine will perform to its highest potential and best performance on 91-octane fuel with no ethanol. That said, you will not damage anything if you use 87-octane fuel with no more than 10% ethanol, it just won’t perform top its full potential. Ryker models perform well on 87-octane fuels. Do NOT use E15 or any fuel with more that 10% ethanol in any recreational vehicle as this will damage the engine.


Using the E10 ethanol fuel isn’t all that bad, but letting it sit in the fuel tank and the fuel system can lead to long term problems. Typically, you do not want to leave ethanol fuel in your Can-Am Spyder or your Can-Am Ryker for more than 30 days. The reason for this is due to the water-absorbing nature of ethanol fuels and the corrosive nature of the ethanol. So, if you do choose to use fuel with ethanol, try to add a fuel stabilizer if you will be leaving the fuel in the vehicle for longer than 30 days. If the vehicle is going into storage for a longer period of time then it is pretty much mandatory to treat the fuel with the appropriate heavier dosage of stabilizer to prevent problems when you go to start and use the vehicle.

" This not to start a fuel debate "....:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack: ...... " highest potential and best performance " ...... welllllllllllllllllll no one , not even BRP has numbers to back this claim up - Period. it could be 5% or 1% or .001% . ..... I think the last one is closer to the truth ..... JMHO .... Mike :thumbup:

 

[CloverHillCrawler]

I don't mean to go too far off topic but holy crap , I was just reading earlier in this thread about more spirited riding and only getting 20-22 MPG with the 1330.

I just want to know how spirited you have to ride to drop into that range?

Before I got the hell off of 70 and started taking 40 instead due to the amount of accidents that are happening out on 70 near Myerstown, I had to do 85-90 MPH sometimes faster just to keep with with traffic on I-70 going to Hagerstown from Frederick going across two mountains that have 1800-2500 elevation on each with a bad alignment that was chewing up the tires and the worst I had was 30.2 MPG.

What the hell do you have to do to go into the 20-22 mpg range? :hun:

 

[troop]

I don't mean to go too far off topic but holy crap , I was just reading earlier in this thread about more spirited riding and only getting 20-22 MPG with the 1330.

I just want to know how spirited you have to ride to drop into that range?

Before I got the hell off of 70 and started taking 40 instead due to the amount of accidents that are happening out on 70 near Myerstown, I had to do 85-90 MPH sometimes faster just to keep with with traffic on I-70 going to Hagerstown from Frederick going across two mountains that have 1800-2500 elevation on each with a bad alignment that was chewing up the tires and the worst I had was 30.2 MPG.

What the hell do you have to do to go into the 20-22 mpg range? :hun:

Geeez .. I don't know?? Fully loaded with three cases across the South Dakota interstate at 80-83 mph, I drop to around 28 mpg. But not low 20's

 

[RayBJ]

I get mid-20s when I ride 8 hours with my spirited sport touring maniacs. Especially when we're in the mountains. Lots of pegging the throttle coming out of the curves and holding til you need to brake for the next rep. It's not easy keeping up with 1200cc Beemers. On the super slab I get near 40.