What's the correct oil capacity for a 1330 motor?

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Why does the level in the (remote) sump change? For the time being, let's ignore any volume difference due to temperature. The level of oil in the sump <should> still be "the level of oil in the sump" when you check it an hour, a day, even a week later. Right? If not, where does it leak out?

The answer may be here. This is a paragraph from the 2014 service manual in the lubrication chapter in the description of the oil pressure circuit. As you can see the wording is fouled up so I'm not sure what exactly the writer is trying to say. Is he saying the valve allows or prevents oil from draining from the tank into the engine? If someone has a service manual for a later model take a look and see if the wording is clearer.



This is the only route that I can discern from the manual that would allow oil to drain back into the crankcase from the reservoir.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

The scavenging pumps would have to be operating at almost zero clearance or have some kind of positive stop check valve in the system, to stop the oil from returning to the dry sump when the engine is shut down. They don't operate at that sort of tolerances. Some oil will leak back past the pumps and pool in the dry sump. The longer it is shut down, the more oil returns. The more wear on the pumps, the more oil returns. Unless there is a check valve system in place, an oil pump is not a strict one way device that can hold the higher level oil against gravity when it is not running. It would not make sense to try to make it do that.

The only problem with that plausible scenario is that the scavenger pumps send the oil into the reservoir by way of what are called vent tubes. The inside the tank end of these tubes is near the top. It's clear to me this is how entrained air and gases are purged out of the oil when it goes back into the tank, one of the reasons for using a dry sump system.

 

[Highwayman2013]

Yes, I understand the basic operation and reason for a dry sump system. What I don't understand is ... while the engine is running, the scavenge pumps are doing their job and pumping oil to the remote sump. When you turn the engine off, the pumps stop. Why does the level in the (remote) sump change? For the time being, let's ignore any volume difference due to temperature. The level of oil in the sump <should> still be "the level of oil in the sump" when you check it an hour, a day, even a week later. Right? If not, where does it leak out?

I'm not trying to be argumentative about all this. All you guys have had your machines for years, and have hopefully checked your oil a time or three. I have only taken ours for a test ride and haven't even seen the dipstick, let alone check the oil level on it. This just seems to be a very convoluted 'solution' to what should be a VERY simple problem. Should just be able to park the bike on a level surface, pull the stick and check the level. :dontknow:

To satisfy the requirements in the manual, it makes sense to follow Baja Ron's suggestion of checking it at the end of a ride, but it still goes against 50+ years of experience of checking BEFORE starting the engine.

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Many new owners have severely overfilled their engines with oil by not checking the oil when it is hot. Ride bike, stop, let it idle for 30 seconds while you get ready to pull dip stick(lift seat, get rag etc.) shut off the engine, pull dip stick. wipe off, screw all the way in, pull dipstick, this should be the level. If you want to run the bike for a minute or 2 before riding and check the oil, as long as there is some on the dip stick it should be good to go.(This however is NOT the way to correct the oil level). The alternative is to just check it after a ride.

 

[Gwolf]

The only problem with that plausible scenario is that the scavenger pumps send the oil into the reservoir by way of what are called vent tubes. The inside the tank end of these tubes is near the top. It's clear to me this is how entrained air and gases are purged out of the oil when it goes back into the tank, one of the reasons for using a dry sump system.

Even if the outlet for the scavenger pumps are above a level so they can't drain back down, there is also the pressure feed pump, pulling from the bottom of the oil tank. None of the pumps have anywhere near close enough tolerances to prevent molecules of hot oil from reverse flowing past the pump impellers when the pumps are not running. Pumps are just not made to stop reverse flow when they are not running.

 

[pegasus1300]

So why is there not a one way check valve to prevent back flow? All the British bikes from years ago were dry sump and they had check valves. You could just open the tank and see the level,60 second check time before a ride. This is not a new concept and the wheel doesn't have to be reinvented just because you are a high tech engine builder.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Even if the outlet for the scavenger pumps are above a level so they can't drain back down, there is also the pressure feed pump, pulling from the bottom of the oil tank. None of the pumps have anywhere near close enough tolerances to prevent molecules of hot oil from reverse flowing past the pump impellers when the pumps are not running. Pumps are just not made to stop reverse flow when they are not running.

Maybe that's the purpose of the retaining valve, to restrain how fast and much the oil does drain. It's in the pressure pump circuit. That's why it would good to know what the writer of the paragraph I show above really intended to say. Looking at the parts diagrams and the text and photos in the service manual I could not figure out exactly how the oil goes from the tank to the pressure pump. What are called oil ports, one with the retaining valve, are about a third or halfway up the side of the tank. There's no good diagram of the oil circuit in the engine.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

So why is there not a one way check valve to prevent back flow? All the British bikes from years ago were dry sump and they had check valves. You could just open the tank and see the level,60 second check time before a ride. This is not a new concept and the wheel doesn't have to be reinvented just because you are a high tech engine builder.

Where would the check valve be? The oil from the tank goes to the suction side of the pressure pump so you need oil flow in that direction. Did perchance the British bikes have the oil reservoir tank below the crankcase? In that case you'd want a check valve to keep the oil from draining from the sump to the reservoir. Or are you by chance thinking of the relief valve that causes oil to circulate from outlet to inlet of the pressure pump to keep the oil pressure below a max pressure? The Rotax engine has that.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I finally figured out where the oil goes from the reservoir to the high pressure pump. In the close up pic you can see the passage from outside the block to inside the block. As you can see it is about 1/4 of the way from the bottom of the reservoir to the top. I got the pic from an eBay listing for a 1330 short block!

 

[PMK]

With so many electronic features on a Spyder, and apparently so few owners able to correctly check the oil quantity, they should have installed an electronic oil level sensor with a gage in plain sight. Oil is low, oil is in normal range, oil is overfilled.

 

[Gwolf]

With so many electronic features on a Spyder, and apparently so few owners able to correctly check the oil quantity, they should have installed an electronic oil level sensor with a gage in plain sight. Oil is low, oil is in normal range, oil is overfilled.

There is nothing wrong with the dipstick we have now. What they need to do is to write some simple and reasonable instructions on the manual.

 

[troop]

Oil sight glass would've been convenient..

 

[PMK]

There is nothing wrong with the dipstick we have now. What they need to do is to write some simple and reasonable instructions on the manual.

Problem is not the oem BRP Dipstick but the Dipsticks trying to read the dipstick. This is an oil level check. Not difficult. Start engine, run a few minutes and check. Being a tad below full is ok, thats why there is a range. The oil level only increases very slightly when fully hot. Simple, do not fill to max when cold checking it.

The true humor in this / these oil level topics is that the 1330 arrived in 2014 and now 6 years later owners still can not figure it out. They need an in plain sight oil gauge or idiot light that says to add oil.

 

[PMK]

Oil sight glass would've been convenient..

Or that too for those with IOLCS.

 

[PMK]

IOLCS = Improper Oil Level Check Syndrome

 

[Lew L]

Oil sight glass would've been convenient..

My poor,old ,slow Yamaha V-Max has a sight glass on the right side of the V-4 motor. Very convenient on the pre-ride check.

Lew L

 

[Gwolf]

Problem is not the oem BRP Dipstick but the Dipsticks trying to read the dipstick. This is an oil level check. Not difficult. Start engine, run a few minutes and check. Being a tad below full is ok, thats why there is a range. The oil level only increases very slightly when fully hot. Simple, do not fill to max when cold checking it.

The true humor in this / these oil level topics is that the 1330 arrived in 2014 and now 6 years later owners still can not figure it out. They need an in plain sight oil gauge or idiot light that says to add oil.

Rode the hard mount, Harley XLs from the mid-1990s until last year. Still own 2 of them. They are also dry sump with a remote oil tank. All you have to do is start the engine, let it run a few minutes, (about the time it takes to back it out of the shop), and then pull the dipstick out of the remote oil tank. You can check it with the engine running. So simple, but even then, on the forums, there was some new owner about once a week that checked it before cold start, added a quart, and then blew the dipstick out of the remote oil tank, showering everything in 20 feet with oil. People are driving around in cars they have owned for several years and don't know where the dipstick is. Owner's manual has no greasy fingerprints on it at all.

 

[PMK]

Rode the hard mount, Harley XLs from the mid-1990s until last year. Still own 2 of them. They are also dry sump with a remote oil tank. All you have to do is start the engine, let it run a few minutes, (about the time it takes to back it out of the shop), and then pull the dipstick out of the remote oil tank. You can check it with the engine running. So simple, but even then, on the forums, there was some new owner about once a week that checked it before cold start, added a quart, and then blew the dipstick out of the remote oil tank, showering everything in 20 feet with oil. People are driving around in cars they have owned for several years and don't know where the dipstick is. Owner's manual has no greasy fingerprints on it at all.

As they often say, if you are going to be stupid you better be tough, or in the case of checking oil on a Spyder tough is replaced by a deep pocket with lots of money.

Ironic but true, I know of a local that had his oil overfilled by the dealer. They had to to remove 1 1/2 quarts from his 1330. Others here have had tremendous oil leaks, support here suggested properly checking the oil. In almost all times, way too much oil was in the engine. They removed the excess, the leak stopped and all was good.

 

[2dogs]

As they often say, if you are going to be stupid you better be tough, or in the case of checking oil on a Spyder tough is replaced by a deep pocket with lots of money.

Ironic but true, I know of a local that had his oil overfilled by the dealer. They had to to remove 1 1/2 quarts from his 1330. Others here have had tremendous oil leaks, support here suggested properly checking the oil. In almost all times, way too much oil was in the engine. They removed the excess, the leak stopped and all was good.

Now you know of two people who had their 1330's overfilled by the dealer. After I got home with my new spyder I checked my liquids. Brake fluid, coolant and oil. They were all full, however the oil was WAY OVER full, by 1.5 qts . And then once again, after my 3000 mile dealer service, the spyder was over filled once more by 1.5 qts. Each time I questioned the service manager about the situations and was told that the service dept employees installed the factory recommended amount of oil.

 

[Gwolf]

Now you know of two people who had their 1330's overfilled by the dealer. After I got home with my new spyder I checked my liquids. Brake fluid, coolant and oil. They were all full, however the oil was WAY OVER full, by 1.5 qts . And then once again, after my 3000 mile dealer service, the spyder was over filled once more by 1.5 qts. Each time I questioned the service manager about the situations and was told that the service dept employees installed the factory recommended amount of oil.

Time to find a new dealer..................

 

[pegasus1300]

Where would the check valve be? The oil from the tank goes to the suction side of the pressure pump so you need oil flow in that direction. Did perchance the British bikes have the oil reservoir tank below the crankcase? In that case you'd want a check valve to keep the oil from draining from the sump to the reservoir. Or are you by chance thinking of the relief valve that causes oil to circulate from outlet to inlet of the pressure pump to keep the oil pressure below a max pressure? The Rotax engine has that.

No the oil tanks were always way above the crank case, and the inlet to the pressure side of the pump and the return line were on the bottom of the case. The check valve would be in the return line to the tank.