What's the correct oil capacity for a 1330 motor?

[troop]

Ahhh.. Different part numbers for different length dipsticks/filler tubes would explain a lot :thumbup:

 

[JayBros]

In the grand scheme of things with the 1330 ACE engine the old adage "RTFM" applies. We owners of 2014 RTs suffered the worst in the introduction of the engine in that the picture of the dipstick in the op guide was of a V-twin engine and the initial fill amount was wrong. BRP corrected the initial fill amount to 5.0 qt which put the dipstick level right at the "Min" mark. I ran a couple of oil changes following this procedure and then decided to add enough oil in 2 oz increments checking the level with each addition and ultimately settled on an additional 6 oz total that put the fill level right midway between the "Min" and "Max" marks on the dipstick. I check the level about every 1,000 miles even though I know it doesn't use a drop. For the heck of it this morning I checked the level cold on the bike that has not been run since the last week in Feb and it was at the level roughly shown by the red line in the picture.

 

[Gwolf]

In the grand scheme of things with the 1330 ACE engine the old adage "RTFM" applies. We owners of 2014 RTs suffered the worst in the introduction of the engine in that the picture of the dipstick in the op guide was of a V-twin engine and the initial fill amount was wrong. BRP corrected the initial fill amount to 5.0 qt which put the dipstick level right at the "Min" mark. I ran a couple of oil changes following this procedure and then decided to add enough oil in 2 oz increments checking the level with each addition and ultimately settled on an additional 6 oz total that put the fill level right midway between the "Min" and "Max" marks on the dipstick. I check the level about every 1,000 miles even though I know it doesn't use a drop. For the heck of it this morning I checked the level cold on the bike that has not been run since the last week in Feb and it was at the level roughly shown by the red line in the pictureView attachment 179920.

Putting in 5.25 quarts after an oil and filter change, puts mine at half way between point 1 and point 2 on your picture. That is with checking it according to the manual. Works every time. I measure it with a kitchen measuring cup............ 2019 F3-S.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Ha .. They're different each year in a 2018/2019/2020 F3 owners manual. Why ? Who knows. Start at 5.25 qts/ride/check/add if necessary.

You are so right! I just checked those three years RT operators guides. So my conclusion is:

Attn: 2019 1330 owners. BRP screwed up the 2019 Operators Guide re: oil change quantities.

The oil refill specification for 2020 is back to the the 2015 to 2018 specs. The 2019 spec is wrong when compared to all the other years.

 

[troop]

You are so right! I just checked those three years RT operators guides. So my conclusion is:

Attn: 2019 1330 owners. BRP screwed up the 2019 Operators Guide re: oil change quantities.

The oil refill specification for 2020 is back to the the 2015 to 2018 specs. The 2019 spec is wrong when compared to all the other years.

As stated in another thread, dipstick and oil filler tube part #'s are also different year/year. That could play a part in oil capacity measurements. As far as the 2019 spec being wrong, I think us 2019 owners would have likely heard something direct from BRP, as proper oil capacity is pretty important ...

 

[Steve W.]

Reading all this discussion about how critical it is to have the proper oil level is starting to get me a bit nervous. We have purchased a 2017 RT-S SE6. All the finances and paperwork are done, we just need the travel ban lifted so we can go get it.

I have downloaded an owner's manual for it and found some information that is so against anything I have ever done before, I find it rather incredulous. Over the years, I have ridden/driven everything from go-karts to a Peterbilt. The FIRST thing you do before starting the engine is check the sight glass or pull the dipstick to check the oil level. What do I find in the Spyder manual?
1. Take a ride of at least 15km (9 mi).
2. Park the vehicle on a level surface.
3. Let the engine idle for 10 minutes.
4. Stop the engine.
5. Within 2 minutes, open the seat.
6. Remove the dipstick.
7. Wipe off the dipstick.
8. Reinsert and completely screw in the dipstick.
9. Unscrew and remove the dipstick again.
10. Check the oil level on the dipstick.

REALLY??? A 9 mile ride is going to take 10-20 minutes, then idle for another 10 minutes. It's 20-30 minutes before you can see if there was any oil in there to start with?

I guess it comes down to -- other than the obvious expansion of warm oil, what changes? Why is it not possible to just check the dipstick BEFORE starting the engine? It would seem to me that once you have determined the proper level with the proper procedure, you could let it sit overnight to cool off, then check the level on the dipstick and use THAT reading as your 'proper' oil level. Is there something about the oil system on a Spyder that I need to learn about?

Farther down the road, I am picturing the morning activities at a weekend Spyder gathering. After breakfast, everybody scatters to go warm up their oil so they can come back and idle for 10 minutes so they can check their oil level. Seems that it would be MUCH better to check the oil, know that you are good, then go for an un-interrupted ride. :thumbup:

.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

As far as the 2019 spec being wrong, I think us 2019 owners would have likely heard something direct from BRP, as proper oil capacity is pretty important ...

You sure would think so. One of my criticisms of BRP is their apparent lack of firm control over document preparation creating inconsistencies year to year and between service manual and operators guide.

As far as part numbers go, I didn't look but that may be because of differences between the F3 and RT. The filler tube assembly and dipstick part numbers are the same for both the 2018 and 2019 RTs but the refill numbers are not.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I guess it comes down to -- other than the obvious expansion of warm oil, what changes? Why is it not possible to just check the dipstick BEFORE starting the engine? It would seem to me that once you have determined the proper level with the proper procedure, you could let it sit overnight to cool off, then check the level on the dipstick and use THAT reading as your 'proper' oil level. Is there something about the oil system on a Spyder that I need to learn about?

That has been suggested by some in the past. The only problem with that is the oil in the tank continues to drop so so you would have to establish a min and max time frame from the time of the last run. Have you seen my comment about there being no oil on the dipstick after sitting all winter, but after a 1/2 hour run it showed full? It would be nice to know just where all the oil is after the engine is run and then where it all is after hours, days, weeks, or whatever, of just sitting. There is definitely something out the ordinary in the Rotax engine design.

 

[Steve W.]

Have you seen my comment about there being no oil on the dipstick after sitting all winter, but after a 1/2 hour run it showed full? It would be nice to know just where all the oil is after the engine is run and then where it all is after hours, days, weeks, or whatever, of just sitting. There is definitely something out the ordinary in the Rotax engine design.

That is one of the things that got me wondering. In my (simple) mind, oil is there or it's not. I understand the oil pump moving it through the engine while it's running, but when you stop, it's going to collect <somewhere>. What moves it from there to wherever it ends up -- while the engine is OFF? :dontknow:

.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

For comparison here's a quote from a 2019 Ski-Doo Operator's Guide with an ACE engine.

1. Start engine and let it reach its normal operating temperature. Engine
is at normal temperature when rear radiator gets warm, indicating
that the thermostat is open.
2. Let engine run at idle for 30 more seconds.
3. Stop engine.

Then check the oil level.

 

[trikermutha]

This was posted on the 1330 by BRP cares awhile back.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...ed-Spyders&highlight=how+check+oil+level+1330

 

[Gwolf]

The Can Am is a dry sump oil system. It is completely different from wet sump systems most people are used to.
The difference in oil levels after running has little to do with heat expansion. Harley and several other motorcycles
also use the dry sump system as well as radical car engines designed for racing.

The dry sump oil system is what causes the different method of checking the oil level. It is not as complicated as it might appear to be. All you need to do is get in the habit of checking your oil when you stop for gas or when you return from a ride, instead of before going on a ride.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_sump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6x19pFplJw

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

That is one of the things that got me wondering. In my (simple) mind, oil is there or it's not. I understand the oil pump moving it through the engine while it's running, but when you stop, it's going to collect <somewhere>. What moves it from there to wherever it ends up -- while the engine is OFF? :dontknow:

The Spyder Rotax is a dry sump engine design. To learn more about dry sump Google is your friend. That means that oil is pumped from the bottom of the engine into the reservoir where it cools and de-aerates. From there it is pumped through the engine and drops into the sump (oil pan for us US folks). At some level of the reservoir there is a drain back to the sump. Because of this the oil level in the reservoir starts dropping as soon as the engine stops. It's obviously a balanced system so that when the engine is running the scavenger pumps are moving oil from the sump to the reservoir at the same rate as the pressure pump is sending it into the engine. Looking at the parts diagrams it looks like the reservoir on the Rotax is a plastic cover mounted to the front side of the engine block.

A dry sump engine uses one pump to push the oil through the engine and one or more to move it from the oil pan to the reservoir. If you're like me, all we've ever been familiar with are wet sump engines where one pump in the oil pan picks up the oil and pushes it through the engine. From what I read dry sumps are used on high performance engines and allow a shallower oil pan.

 

[Steve W.]

The Can Am is a dry sump oil system. It is completely different from wet sump systems most people are used to.

Thanks, Gwolf, that is part of what I am looking for. I am acquainted with dry sump systems, but there must be something about the Can-Am system that is different. The systems I have seen have scavenging pumps that pull oil from the bottom of the engine and put it in a reservoir. A pressure pump takes it from the reservoir and supplies the moving parts in the engine. A dipstick in the reservoir should tell you whether you have enough oil.

Unless oil drains back from the reservoir to the engine, the level should not drop. Even if it does drop, why would it take 20-30 minutes of running to make sure the oil is all in the reservoir? Shouldn't take more than 20-30 SECONDS.

All you need to do is get in the habit of checking your oil when you stop for gas or when you return from a ride, instead of before going on a ride.

That might end up being a much more practical method, but it's basically undoing 50+ years of driving practice.

With my "I have to know <why>" mentality, I will probably do some experimentation when we finally get it home.

.

 

[BajaRon]

Thanks, Gwolf, that is part of what I am looking for. I am acquainted with dry sump systems, but there must be something about the Can-Am system that is different. The systems I have seen have scavenging pumps that pull oil from the bottom of the engine and put it in a reservoir. A pressure pump takes it from the reservoir and supplies the moving parts in the engine. A dipstick in the reservoir should tell you whether you have enough oil.

Unless oil drains back from the reservoir to the engine, the level should not drop. Even if it does drop, why would it take 20-30 minutes of running to make sure the oil is all in the reservoir? Shouldn't take more than 20-30 SECONDS. .

I believe that there are 3 oil pressure pumps in the dry sump system. But whatever the number. I agree that 20-30 minutes is much more than what should be necessary to get an accurate reading. Though 20 or 30 seconds might be a bit optimistic. My feeling is that this seemingly ridiculous time span may have more to do with lubricant temperature requirements for getting an accurate reading, than time necessary for the pumping system to stabilize oil levels.

I am a proponent of checking oil level during, or at the end of a ride. This assures a correct reading. And unless you find a puddle of oil under your Spyder the next time you ride. The level will be the same as when you parked it. This method does require that you change your routine. But it works very well and removes all the guessing and potential overfilling that has occurred with some.

 

[Gwolf]

Unless oil drains back from the reservoir to the engine, the level should not drop. Even if it does drop, why would it take 20-30 minutes of running to make sure the oil is all in the reservoir? Shouldn't take more than 20-30 SECONDS.
.

It does not take the dry sump very long to pump the oil that might have collected back into the oil tank. It really is not absolutely necessary to ride for 30 minutes before checking it. Part of that is the engineering department trying to create a standard to cover every possibility. There will be some differences because of the temperature of the oil on start up. For example, it will take much longer to get the engine to operating temperature if it is started up at 30 degrees F than if it was started up at 80 degrees F.

Also the amount of air trapped in the oil is allowed to equalize at operating temperature. More air trapped in the oil will affect the oil level. If you just start up and idle around for a few minutes there will not be as much air trapped in the oil as there will be if you let the engine warm up, and then ride it at highway speeds. The trapped air will be more of a factor than the expansion of the oil when it warms up.

It not a factor on all engines, but sumping can cause radically different dipstick reading on cold engines. The engine has been sitting and the oil has drained (very slowly) into the dry sump of the engine, from the oil tank. It can take some time for the oil to be pumped back into the oil tank and equalize in the upper parts of the engine and cooler if it is equipped with one.

The time specified is not exact. It does not really have to be exactly 9 miles or 30 minutes, or whatever else you manual might say. It only needs to be long enough for the oil and the engine to get up to operating temperature, and run enough to have the normal amount of air mixed/stirred into the oil, and distributed in the various stages of the dry sump system when it is checked.

 

[Peter Aawen]

That is one of the things that got me wondering. In my (simple) mind, oil is there or it's not. I understand the oil pump moving it through the engine while it's running, but when you stop, it's going to collect <somewhere>. What moves it from there to wherever it ends up -- while the engine is OFF? :dontknow:

.

On a 'wet sump' engine (like that in most cars/trucks) there's generally plenty of room underneath the engine block for a 'sump' to collect a dirty great puddle of oil and hold it there ready for use, so that whenever the engine is running, while some components might be lubricated by splashing around in that puddle of oil, for the rest, the engine lubrication system sucks up and pumps the oil out of the sump up to wherever it's needed; and then this simple & cheap system lets gravity do most of the 'return the oil to the sump' work; where the oil pools & cools a little before being picked up again & filtered, maybe cooled a bit more, and then gets pumped back up to do its lubrication thing wherever it's needed once again..... So because the pump is always collecting oil from that puddle and pushing said oil up towards the top of the engine whenever the engine's running and then the oil has to drain back down to the sump under gravity, you need to wait about 30 seconds to a minute or so after shutting the engine down for all the oil to drain down out of the top of the engine, so that most of the oil has fallen back into the sump before you take your dip stick reading so you can get an accurate indication of the oil level. Easy enough to understand and something most of us are fairly used to doing, right?! Oil gets pumped up, oil falls back down under gravity. :thumbup:

But on a 'Dry Sump' engine (like that in our Spyders & in many other performance engines subjected to 'high G manoeuvres....&/or in engines that don't have very much room for that dirty great puddle of a sump underneath them!) whenever the engine is running there is still an engine lubrication system that pumps oil to wherever it's needed to do it's lubrication thing, but instead of relying on gravity to do the oil return task (because gravity can be overcome by sufficient levels of those high 'G' forces experienced during performance manoeuvring) there are a number of 'scavenge pumps' that pick up the 'used' oil from a number of 'post high pressure delivery' pooling points, and these scavenge pumps actually PUMP the oil back into (for want of a better descriptive term) the 'sump', only in this 'dry sump' engine's case, it's not a 'dirty great puddle at the bottom of the engine', it's a (generally somewhat smaller) holding tank off to one side or end of the engine somewhere! The oil still goes on its way via filtration & cooling systems somewhere in that loop, prior to its re-distribution under pressure to wherever it's needed; but the critical difference for us to note is that once its been delivered and 'used' wherever it's needed, the oil is then returned to that holding tank off to one side under pressure! The correct oil level in that holding tank equates to the correct oil level in a 'wet sump' engine just like the sump found on most cars, except because it's not 'a puddle at the bottom of the engine', that level will only remain 'correct' for a (shortish?) while after the engine shuts down and before all the pumps stop moving and losing pressure and the oil in the system starts to 'fall' its way back from wherever it is to pool in the last one of those 'post high pressure delivery' pooling points that it got sucked out of; and to some extent, because it's now only subject to gravity, it will also work its way down into the nether regions of the engine too..... (altho there's not really a 'sump' down there, there usually IS one of those small 'pooling points'. )

But for our purposes, it's fairly straight-forward - on our 'dry sump' engines, because the oil gets pumped up AND it gets pumped back into a tank that's NOT underneath the engine, if you wait too long to check the oil level in the holding tank after shutting the engine down, that 'holding tank' will have started to drain/empty (simply cos gravity comes into play again once there's no pressure &/or working pumps topping it up all the time anymore!) and your reading taken after that short 'correct level' window will be incorrect - hence the need to check your oil level during that 'still full immediately after engine shut down' period!! Make sense?!? :dontknow:

There's actually a few other things involved here too, not the least of which being the way oil volume expands when it gets hotter, up to a point; and how the 'holding tank' needs to be where it is in order to reduce the effect of gravity on IT enough during operation that there's always going to be oil available for the delivery pump/s to collect & distribute oil when & where its needed; and a bunch more besides - but it's largely the 'high performance' & low profile nature of our Spyder engines that warrant this 'dry sump' lubrication system, and all 'dry sump' lubrication systems have a slightly different oil level checking method to that used on your car in order to correctly check that you've got enough oil in their holding tanks to do the necessary for & in your engine as & when needed. :lecturef_smilie:

Simples really! :thumbup:

 

[Steve W.]

Yes, I understand the basic operation and reason for a dry sump system. What I don't understand is ... while the engine is running, the scavenge pumps are doing their job and pumping oil to the remote sump. When you turn the engine off, the pumps stop. Why does the level in the (remote) sump change? For the time being, let's ignore any volume difference due to temperature. The level of oil in the sump <should> still be "the level of oil in the sump" when you check it an hour, a day, even a week later. Right? If not, where does it leak out?

I'm not trying to be argumentative about all this. All you guys have had your machines for years, and have hopefully checked your oil a time or three. I have only taken ours for a test ride and haven't even seen the dipstick, let alone check the oil level on it. This just seems to be a very convoluted 'solution' to what should be a VERY simple problem. Should just be able to park the bike on a level surface, pull the stick and check the level. :dontknow:

To satisfy the requirements in the manual, it makes sense to follow Baja Ron's suggestion of checking it at the end of a ride, but it still goes against 50+ years of experience of checking BEFORE starting the engine.

.

 

[Gwolf]

The scavenging pumps would have to be operating at almost zero clearance or have some kind of positive stop check valve in the system, to stop the oil from returning to the dry sump when the engine is shut down. They don't operate at that sort of tolerances. Some oil will leak back past the pumps and pool in the dry sump. The longer it is shut down, the more oil returns. The more wear on the pumps, the more oil returns. Unless there is a check valve system in place, an oil pump is not a strict one way device that can hold the higher level oil against gravity when it is not running. It would not make sense to try to make it do that.

 

[EdMat]

Why does the level in the (remote) sump change? For the time being, let's ignore any volume difference due to temperature. The level of oil in the sump <should> still be "the level of oil in the sump" when you check it an hour, a day, even a week later. Right? If not, where does it leak out?


.

For some reason the engine designers allow the oil in the wet sump to slowly leak back into the engine and transmission. Not sure why, but Rotax has always beat to a slightly different drum. I know if mine sets several days oil does not show on the dipstick.

Since the 1330 engine uses no oil to speak of I just check it every 1,000 miles or so and look for puddles in between.