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To Steve (BRPcare) about DESS issues

SHIELDING THE MODULE

The problem started for the 2014 models. That is when the vehicle immobilizer system was redesigned for a rolling code transponder in the key.
Billy you seem to have a very good grasp on this topic...soooooooo, did you read about what Paul ( PMK ) suggested ( a few posts back ) to use to wrap the MODULE. Do you think it will have any effect --- positive or possibly NEGATIVE ??????.....Thanks ......Mike :thumbup:
 
Gave a quick look to the wiring schematic. The schematic shows a simple coil for the antenna, no logic circuits. All the checks listed, are to verify DESS module power input of 12v key on, <1v key off, and verify grounds of items and then verify grounds of the entire circuit. No checks posted on the exciter output to the antenna in the switch.

Want to add, I incorrectly stated the DESS module is 4 wire, it is in fact 5 wire. Fused feed I believe, two wires to the antenna, and two wires to the ECM, possibly case grounded also.

Next time the frunk is removed, I will clean and preserve a good ground. Same for the ECM.

That's correct the DESS antenna is nothing but a coil of wire. Most likely failure mode if any is a break in the wire. So a simple continuity test with an ohmmeter can tell you if it's good or bad. Not much to go wrong there. That is the only part of the ignition switch assembly that has anything to do with the immobilizer system. It appears to be the same as in pre 2014 models that are reasonably trouble free. I would be extremely surprised if the root cause has anything to do with the ignition switch.
 
Billy you seem to have a very good grasp on this topic...soooooooo, did you read about what Paul ( PMK ) suggested ( a few posts back ) to use to wrap the MODULE. Do you think it will have any effect --- positive or possibly NEGATIVE ??????.....Thanks ......Mike :thumbup:

I have a gut feel that it would not help shielding the DESS module, but can't know that for sure. I don't think it would cause any harm either.
 
...I'd also guess that BRP will not reply, they are hoping that this and the other thread just become inactive and that nobody notices. "Just shut up and hope they go away".

You're right but for the wrong reason. There is not a company anywhere that will admit liability publicly, like on this form. Period.
 

I would personally start by getting my key reprogrammed as a previous poster did. No problems since. I am sure everyone is aware by now that the key was changed in 2014 and previous keys were some times partially programmed but hardly worked. I know several who bought aftermarket keys for use or a spare and they were not the same quality as the BRP key and may be causing this problem.

When I bought my 2014 the dealer had lost the spare key. Coyote power sports in Bourne, TX tried over and over to program an in stock key and were unsuccessful. Ride now tried the same thing--same results. After several calls to the head shed it became a surprise that the keys had changed in 2014 and were not interchangeable. Factory sent the proper key and all is well.

During all this a request to change the entire ignition system ($1300) was considered. No cost to me of course. Can you believe it?

Morale of this informative but less cared about story is check your keys first or get the dealer to reprogram it before going ballistically nuts and bolts.

I know a lot of you bought aftermarket spare keys and they may be the problem. Mama said " you usually get what you pay for" and cheaper is usually not as good. With one exception. Yesterday I bought some Rabbit and Deer repellant to protect some new plants. This was at a high end Nursery and cost $20. Ten minutes later I stopped at Lowes and saw the same thing and same amount for $12.36. Oh well, life goes on and the rabbits are still eating my plants.

Jack
 
More in depth to specific details than what I posted. I would agree this sounds pretty correct. Is it possible the frequency is stripped by the DESS module rather than the antenna, or could it be stripped by the ECM? If the DESS module is a 2 connector with 2 wires per connector, then the DESS is probably as you say a DC to pulsed DC only type unit.

Reading this, it kind of makes me wonder how transient RF is overcoming the antenna, if the machine is supposedly smart enough to pull the logic of the key code out.

In regards to the DESS module, if it failed and only supplied DC instead of pulsed DC then it would indicate a single item failure. If the antenna failed, which seems to be the DESS item within the key switch failed, then the key would not become excited, and / or the signal could not be read. Having a logic circuit in the key switch is possible but seems silly since the real on board computer is ultimately making the decision I would expect.

Then again, it is BRP and seems incredibly over complicated.

I have not read them closely yet, but I did notice some electrical checks in the maintenance manual.
As I understand it the only way transient RF will cause a problem is if it is carrying with it digital data that gets mixed in with the digital data stream being read from the key, or somehow causes the digital data stream from the key to stumble.

The antenna serves two distinct purposes. First it creates an electromagnetic field, like Billy explains, that is rising and falling. A DC pulse will do this. That rising and falling magnetic field induces a voltage in a coil in the key much the same as the transformer outside your house. That coil and the circuit tied to it then becomes a power supply to the key circuitry. The transmitting portion of the key chip then transmits a stream of numbers which the antenna picks up and sends to the DESS module. The antenna, in this mode, receives and captures the radio signal from the key. Think of it kind of like the rabbit ears on your old style TV. I'm guessing the DESS looks at the data stream and verifies that the data is good. It isn't going to know if the data is valid, only that it is formatted correctly, has the correct number of numbers, and that those numbers look legitimate.

The DESS sends those numbers to the ECM. The ECM has stored in it the serial number of the key and a table of numbers, called the rolling codes table. The rolling codes table is different for every key. The ECM looks at the rolling code coming from the key. If it is the next one in the sequence, or only a few later, for one of the stored keys, it gives the OK to start. The key and the ECM traverse the table of rolling codes one a time in the forward direction, and keep track of which code was the last one used. If it gets a rolling code that is earlier in the table than the last one used, it will reject it as being invalid. I'm sure the reason BRP suggests turning the key on and off repeatedly when the DESS occurs is to force the key to move to a later number in the table and maybe it will be close enough to the last used code to make the ECM happy.

I'll offer a some speculation here. One is your key somehow or another is getting into an electromagnetic field that activates the chip in it and it moves along in the rolling code table so far that the next time you turn on the Spyder, the code it sends it so far away from the last one the ECM used that it is seen as invalid. Another speculation is that the two keys you have have code tables where some of the codes are the same in both keys. If you use a different key maybe the code it sends is behind the last one the ECM used from the other key. This will cause the ECM to reject the key. Or, if two keys have a common rolling code in their tables the ECM won't know which key is in the ignition and throws an error. Another possibility is the key chip is faulty and does not traverse the code table correctly. This is unlikely, but possible.

A suggestion I offer to whoever is experiencing DESS failures. Before you have the DESS module or antenna replaced have the dealer cut you brand new keys and program them into the ECM. Delete the old keys. I don't recall seeing anyone mentioning that one of the attempted fixes was to replace the keys first. Reprogramming the keys with BUDS will do nothing to solve the problem. Why? Because all that programming does is tell the ECM to read the key and store the codes from it. If the key is defective, i.e., has a malfunctioning chip in it, reprogramming does nothing to it.

For the record, my 2014 RTS, sold new in August 2014, now has 5400 miles on it. I have not experienced a DESS error, except those I created by having a second key next to the one in the ignition.
 
THE RE-PROGRAMING FIX !!!!


I would personally start by getting my key reprogrammed as a previous poster did. No problems since. I am sure everyone is aware by now that the key was changed in 2014 and previous keys were some times partially programmed but hardly worked. I know several who bought aftermarket keys for use or a spare and they were not the same quality as the BRP key and may be causing this problem.

When I bought my 2014 the dealer had lost the spare key. Coyote power sports in Bourne, TX tried over and over to program an in stock key and were unsuccessful. Ride now tried the same thing--same results. After several calls to the head shed it became a surprise that the keys had changed in 2014 and were not interchangeable. Factory sent the proper key and all is well.

During all this a request to change the entire ignition system ($1300) was considered. No cost to me of course. Can you believe it?

Morale of this informative but less cared about story is check your keys first or get the dealer to reprogram it before going ballistically nuts and bolts.

I know a lot of you bought aftermarket spare keys and they may be the problem. Mama said " you usually get what you pay for" and cheaper is usually not as good. With one exception. Yesterday I bought some Rabbit and Deer repellant to protect some new plants. This was at a high end Nursery and cost $20. Ten minutes later I stopped at Lowes and saw the same thing and same amount for $12.36. Oh well, life goes on and the rabbits are still eating my plants.

Jack
Well ...Deanna777 ( one of the first with this issue ) had the re-program thing done back in 2015.....a month later She needed a NEW MODULE to fix this issue again.......I don't think there is a FIX YET......jmho....Mike :thumbup:
 
DESS - SHIELDING

I have a gut feel that it would not help shielding the DESS module, but can't know that for sure. I don't think it would cause any harm either.
.Sorry if you covered this already :banghead: .....but can the RFI signals be STOPPED by ANYTHING at all.??????....and /or is it worth it to even try ??????.................Mike :thumbup:
 
.Sorry if you covered this already :banghead: .....but can the RFI signals be STOPPED by ANYTHING at all.??????....and /or is it worth it to even try ??????.................Mike :thumbup:
I believe steel is one of the best. Think in terms of magnetic attraction, not electrical conductivity.

One idea I'll toss out. Get a steel soup can and set it over the top of the key before turning the ignition on. You'll have to rig some sort of catch or holder inside to grab the key and turn it. I'm thinking this might do two things. One is confine the radio waves between the key and antenna so they will be seen as more intense by the antenna, and two help shield the antenna from outside radio waves.
 
OK I just read all 7 pages of this thread and 15 pages of another thread and I am not looking to jynks myself here as I have a 2014 with 6500 miles on it and have not seen the D.E.S.S. error. Has anyone had an issue once they changed to the new model D.E.S.S 71004916. I like to be proactive and from all the issues seen here there is obvioulsy an issue that has certian odds of happening and if replacing the $100.00 module would prevent me from ending up stranded who knows where I will just replace the module.

The next question is that just replacing the D.E.S.S module does not require replacing keys is this true? :dontknow:

I work in the security industry and although not as detailed as IdahoMntSpyder explaination the D.E.S.S works off the same type of technology as card access cards (not the magnetic strip kind) the card (key) has an antenna or chip in it with a programmed code and the reader antenna excites or energizes the chip reading the encoded number and allowing access, the biggest problems we see with this technology is something effects the chip RF/EMF or the likes, or the signal power from the reader is not strong enough. Sure you could get a broken antenna if the card is bent or someting to that effect. If you stay at a hotel and they tell you not to put your room card in the same pocket as your phone it is because the RF from the phone can effect the antenna.

I am wondering what the rate of falure is and if it is great enough why a recall is not issued. Maybe we will find out in 2017....... in the mean time how many of us :spyder2: Ryders will end up stranded?:banghead:
 
OK I just read all 7 pages of this thread and 15 pages of another thread and I am not looking to jynks myself here as I have a 2014 with 6500 miles on it and have not seen the D.E.S.S. error. Has anyone had an issue once they changed to the new model D.E.S.S 71004916. I like to be proactive and from all the issues seen here there is obvioulsy an issue that has certian odds of happening and if replacing the $100.00 module would prevent me from ending up stranded who knows where I will just replace the module.

The next question is that just replacing the D.E.S.S module does not require replacing keys is this true? :dontknow:

I work in the security industry and although not as detailed as IdahoMntSpyder explaination the D.E.S.S works off the same type of technology as card access cards (not the magnetic strip kind) the card (key) has an antenna or chip in it with a programmed code and the reader antenna excites or energizes the chip reading the encoded number and allowing access, the biggest problems we see with this technology is something effects the chip RF/EMF or the likes, or the signal power from the reader is not strong enough. Sure you could get a broken antenna if the card is bent or someting to that effect. If you stay at a hotel and they tell you not to put your room card in the same pocket as your phone it is because the RF from the phone can effect the antenna.

I am wondering what the rate of falure is and if it is great enough why a recall is not issued. Maybe we will find out in 2017....... in the mean time how many of us :spyder2: Ryders will end up stranded?:banghead:

We had the 4916 module installed on 1/4/16 at 4,400 miles after several DESS dash messages. Dealer did not list any key reprogramming and no other parts were listed on the R.O. As of today, at 5500 miles, we have had one episode where it was a no start. Same DESS message. The only difference was that the bike was still in the garage and had not been started in several days. Previously, all the no starts were on highway trips where we stopped for fuel and drink. In all the instances we removed the key and walked away from bike and it did start and run fine.
 
D.E.S.S. - ISSUE

We had the 4916 module installed on 1/4/16 at 4,400 miles after several DESS dash messages. Dealer did not list any key reprogramming and no other parts were listed on the R.O. As of today, at 5500 miles, we have had one episode where it was a no start. Same DESS message. The only difference was that the bike was still in the garage and had not been started in several days. Previously, all the no starts were on highway trips where we stopped for fuel and drink. In all the instances we removed the key and walked away from bike and it did start and run fine.
Well there you have it .....Part # 4916 isn't any better than all the other " FIXES " BRP has come up with :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: ........:gaah:..............Mike :barf:
 

I would personally start by getting my key reprogrammed as a previous poster did. No problems since. I am sure everyone is aware by now that the key was changed in 2014 and previous keys were some times partially programmed but hardly worked. I know several who bought aftermarket keys for use or a spare and they were not the same quality as the BRP key and may be causing this problem.

When I bought my 2014 the dealer had lost the spare key. Coyote power sports in Bourne, TX tried over and over to program an in stock key and were unsuccessful. Ride now tried the same thing--same results. After several calls to the head shed it became a surprise that the keys had changed in 2014 and were not interchangeable. Factory sent the proper key and all is well.

During all this a request to change the entire ignition system ($1300) was considered. No cost to me of course. Can you believe it?

Morale of this informative but less cared about story is check your keys first or get the dealer to reprogram it before going ballistically nuts and bolts.

I know a lot of you bought aftermarket spare keys and they may be the problem. Mama said " you usually get what you pay for" and cheaper is usually not as good. With one exception. Yesterday I bought some Rabbit and Deer repellant to protect some new plants. This was at a high end Nursery and cost $20. Ten minutes later I stopped at Lowes and saw the same thing and same amount for $12.36. Oh well, life goes on and the rabbits are still eating my plants.

Jack
Jack, I had my keys reprogramed and I have not had the D.E.S.S. error show up. ( the keys were reprogrammed on Aug. 28th, 2015) Also the D.E.S.S. module changed twice ( in July 14, 2015 and on Aug. 28th,2015) D.E.S.S MODULE part # 71004190 both times that I had it done. Deanna
 
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Well ...Deanna777 ( one of the first with this issue ) had the re-program thing done back in 2015.....a month later She needed a NEW MODULE to fix this issue again.......I don't think there is a FIX YET......jmho....Mike :thumbup:
Part # for the D.E.S.S Module is 710004190, and I had the Switch replaced/and reprogrammed part # 710004413, I have not had the D.E.S.S. error show up yet! If I do I will post on my thread. Deanna
 
If It is an IRF problem, shield the key and the ignition with an aluminum can with the top and bottom cut out. Put can over ignition, place key, turn on. Can should shield all radio noise. Jimmy
 
We had the 4916 module installed on 1/4/16 at 4,400 miles after several DESS dash messages. Dealer did not list any key reprogramming and no other parts were listed on the R.O. As of today, at 5500 miles, we have had one episode where it was a no start. Same DESS message. The only difference was that the bike was still in the garage and had not been started in several days. Previously, all the no starts were on highway trips where we stopped for fuel and drink. In all the instances we removed the key and walked away from bike and it did start and run fine.



I also have the 4916 module...It was replaced 11/9/15...800 miles ago...Had the DESS error 3 times in one day the last time I rode...BRP seems to be clueless as to how to fix it...They are telling my dealer its a RFI problem, and its my problem, and I'm the only one that has the latest and greatest module that has the problem...WRONG...This is my forth go around with the DESS problem...And one of the previous times it let me set a long way from home and I had to get a ride home and get my truck and trailer and tow it back to the dealer all on my dime...I contacted their road assistance and they wanted over $500.00 to tow it back to the dealer...After I took it back on my dime I contacted their road assistance again and wanted reimbursed for my cost and they said they WON'T pay me...Am I a happy owner/rider???:banghead:
 
I also have the 4916 module...It was replaced 11/9/15...800 miles ago...Had the DESS error 3 times in one day the last time I rode...BRP seems to be clueless as to how to fix it...They are telling my dealer its a RFI problem, and its my problem, and I'm the only one that has the latest and greatest module that has the problem...WRONG...This is my forth go around with the DESS problem...And one of the previous times it let me set a long way from home and I had to get a ride home and get my truck and trailer and tow it back to the dealer all on my dime...I contacted their road assistance and they wanted over $500.00 to tow it back to the dealer...After I took it back on my dime I contacted their road assistance again and wanted reimbursed for my cost and they said they WON'T pay me...Am I a happy owner/rider???:banghead:
Do you have anything metal attached to the key when the error comes up, like a key ring or other key? If so, remove it. In a little experiment I ran last night a key ring and key number tag helped to create an error when I placed my Nissan key next to the Spyder key in the ignition.
 
I want to emphasize again, there is no such thing as the dealer reprogramming the keys. There is ONLY reprogramming the ECM for the keys. The reprogramming via BUDS only tells the ECM to read the keys and store the information from them in it. Nothing the dealer does changes anything in the key chip. If reprogramming the ECM helps to solve the problem then that means there is an issue with the ECM, or the ECM did not read and store correct information during the previous programming process. If the latter the keys most likely would have never worked to start the Spyder.

If, by a very small possibility, the chip in the key(s) is defective then reprogramming the ECM for the keys will be hit and miss at best. It won't be a fix. The chip in the key is read only memory and, I'm going to venture to say, can be programmed only one time at the factory using special computer systems when the key is first manufactured. After that the code is permanently burned in, never to be changed again.
 
i just watched a show about UFO'S, and it said that they threw off EMF fields. so the next time this happens to someone, look up and see if you see one. i am going to keep a eye out also
 
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