PaladinLV
New member
IF you bothered to READ the Post initiated by Deanne you might have your answer!
AJ
AJ
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To Steve (BRPcare) about DESS issues
- Thread starter rcturner
- Start date
WellsboroSpyder
New member
OH I'm sorry! And which post would that be as I only started with this one but returner. I can find no actual number of affected spyders.
[QUOTE I can find no actual number of affected spyders.[/QUOTE]
That's the REAL question, isn't it????????????? With 18 total pages being devoted to this topic since 8/15(9 months), how many Spyders are really affected vs. those that feel the need to vent(including me). Are we talking 10, 20, 30, ..........100..............1,000. Why have we not heard any reports from "across the pond"????? Has the issue been solved for 2016????? if it has, then why hasn't the "fix" been sent to owners of '14s &'15s via a TSB/Recall from BRP to dealers??? I pre-emptively emailled BRP Customer Support about this. Their reply demonstrated no empathy for my inquiry, did not acknowledge that a problem existed. and seemed like they were really annoyed that I had even taken time to contact them.
My feeling at this point is that the real number os Spyders with this issue is somewhere between 100-200 at most. BRP must feel like this is an annoying pimple on their face. Granted 1 is too many when it affects you, and you are stranded miles away from home, or after having a "fix" done the problem returns. 1 get that.
As someone posted this is not alife threatening, matter, so the NHTSB will be reluctant to get involved. "They've got bigger fish to fry." This certainly is an unsettling issue. It feels like there are two types of Spyder riders, those that have had the DESS issue and those who are yet to experience it. I luckily am in the latter group along with a lot of other Spyderlovers. It would be certainly be reassuring if BRP Cares would reply.
Keeping my fingers crossed
Mike
That's the REAL question, isn't it????????????? With 18 total pages being devoted to this topic since 8/15(9 months), how many Spyders are really affected vs. those that feel the need to vent(including me). Are we talking 10, 20, 30, ..........100..............1,000. Why have we not heard any reports from "across the pond"????? Has the issue been solved for 2016????? if it has, then why hasn't the "fix" been sent to owners of '14s &'15s via a TSB/Recall from BRP to dealers??? I pre-emptively emailled BRP Customer Support about this. Their reply demonstrated no empathy for my inquiry, did not acknowledge that a problem existed. and seemed like they were really annoyed that I had even taken time to contact them.
My feeling at this point is that the real number os Spyders with this issue is somewhere between 100-200 at most. BRP must feel like this is an annoying pimple on their face. Granted 1 is too many when it affects you, and you are stranded miles away from home, or after having a "fix" done the problem returns. 1 get that.
As someone posted this is not alife threatening, matter, so the NHTSB will be reluctant to get involved. "They've got bigger fish to fry." This certainly is an unsettling issue. It feels like there are two types of Spyder riders, those that have had the DESS issue and those who are yet to experience it. I luckily am in the latter group along with a lot of other Spyderlovers. It would be certainly be reassuring if BRP Cares would reply.
Keeping my fingers crossed
Mike
Bob Denman
New member
One point worth mentioning... 
BRP isn't the only manufacturer, that has had this issue pop up...
I had a 3/4 ton Chevy 2500 pickup truck, that used to think that I was stealing it! :gaah:
Yes; it got fixed. :thumbup:
But it's just to point out that anything built by man; can get busted! :shocked:
BRP isn't the only manufacturer, that has had this issue pop up...
I had a 3/4 ton Chevy 2500 pickup truck, that used to think that I was stealing it! :gaah:
Yes; it got fixed. :thumbup:
But it's just to point out that anything built by man; can get busted! :shocked:
PMK
Active member
The total number of failures whether first time or as been mentioned, same vehicle with multiple failures is known by BRP. 200 seems low and would be 4 per state in the USA. Within a 10 mile radius of my house we meet our allotment of 4 failures, more if you consider multiple failures. I suspect the total failures is considerably more.
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ndspyderlover
New member
I do not have a gps or other coded keys near the ignition and I have gotten the dess error4 times. three times since they replaced the modules etc. I can not believe someone is not paying attention to this matter. someone is not taking care of business. if 99% of us conducted business this way we would all be broke. very frustrating
waytootall67
New member
Yes this is what we got...531 bucks for a 70 mile tow and brp picked up $200. My wife bought AAA for fear it will happen again.
WEB-WVR
New member
This is what I was thinking. There are so many RF signals in different locations, even at your home that you are not even aware of. If these signals are stronger than or interfere with the key chip.....maybe that causes the problem. Sounds like the best fix would be a total bypass of the DESS system. :thumbup:
garb55
New member
If all of this were true and it is RF signal causing the problem
Why don't we see hundreds of vehicles stranded at gas stations
GPS and blue tooth have been in vehicles for years
they should all be stranded if what everyone here is saying were true
IdahoMtnSpyder
Active member
Try to think if there has been ANYTHING, anything at all, that was similar in your location or surroundings, or anything else, at all of these occurrences. Did these all happen in your garage, or at a particular store, particular time of day, or anything similar. That might provide a clue.
I'm of the opinion that the DESS antenna and key communication physical conditions, like signal strength, may not be robust enough to tolerate external RF influences. If that is the case then simply swapping out the DESS module and antenna won't solve the problem. A new generation of keys is probably needed that has a more robust transmitter in it.
IdahoMtnSpyder
Active member
I can understand why you think that, but unfortunately, it's not that simple. First, I suspect that most car and truck chip key systems rely on a a stronger radio signal than is the BRP system. This will allow them to tolerate stronger outside interference.
RF interference is common. Even the home cordless phone system can interact with your home WiFi signal, or vice versa. Cordless microphones in churches and elsewhere sometimes get mucked up by outside signals. Radio frequency bands are getting packed more and more all the time and so analog signals just don't cut it any more. That's why everything is digital. If the DESS happens to get bombarded by a digital signal on just the right carrier frequency then the digital data it reads from the key can get messed up. If even one digit out the entire key digital ID gets read incorrectly it will feed a wrong number to the ECM and the ECM will reject it.
Here's an article discussing how a New York DJ's remote control for his dance floor lighting system was disabling the keyless entry systems of Mercedes and Lexus cars. http://wardsauto.com/technology/radio-expert-unlocks-malfunctioning-key-fob-mystery. So what you are asking about has happened.
Seems to me that rf or other signals suddenly interfering cannot be the answer, and the more this is discussed the easier it makes it for brp to just sit back.
either something drastic changed in the environment since 2014, or something drastic changed in the manufacture of spyders. Which seems more logical?
Reminds me of previous issues where it was always our fault, never a spyder issue...
Did they change the supplier or design of the key itself?
Ditto re dss.
ditto re ignition system.
time for brp to chime in, and look at the design/ supplier rather than the user...
rant over
either something drastic changed in the environment since 2014, or something drastic changed in the manufacture of spyders. Which seems more logical?
Reminds me of previous issues where it was always our fault, never a spyder issue...
Did they change the supplier or design of the key itself?
Ditto re dss.
ditto re ignition system.
time for brp to chime in, and look at the design/ supplier rather than the user...
rant over
PaladinLV
New member
It has been tried by many and in the majority of cases . . . it does not work and when it does, the error comes back again in a short period of time.
AJ
AJ
PaladinLV
New member
RF and Electromagnetic Waves their addition, subtraction, harmonics etc. can play all kinds of havoc.
BUT
For them to combine in such a way to effect the KEY in a repeated fashion over the course of minutes, hours, days, weeks, months is a mathematical improbability!
If any of this were true, then let them explain the problem happening in the middle of desert without another vehicle or power line within the horizontal plane.
The problem is NOT too many waves, the problem is saturation of the key by the DESS module itself via the ignition switch. This was stated early on by BRP.
Why this happens for some and not others is an unknown to BRP.
However, the fix IS known.
Replace BOTH the DESS module AND the ignition switch. To date is the ONLY fix that PERMANENTLY works for those effected and BRP KNOWS this!
Why BRP Care does not come out and say this? No clue.
You need a dealership that will listen, a rider that is proactive and the job gets done right the first time.
It is also known that most of the failure occur UNDER 5K miles.
For over a year I jury-rigged fixes to keep me going until I started getting the error on a weekly basis. That became the last straw.
Went with photos in hand, part numbers in hand, and SpyderLovers posts in hand to the dealership.
No arguments from dealership, no arguments from BRP, they sent BOTH parts along with new keys and trailer lock.
Did it work?
Ask me in about 3K more miles!
As for the "old" parts, BRP requested dealership to return them (which is typically the case).
So BRP has been receiving the "bad" modules for well over a year and still no real solution has been forthcoming from BRP to the community at large.
HOWEVER, the workings of the 16 are said to be different from the 14-15 crop of RTs. So maybe they actually did learn something.
If the 16s are "fixed" we won't here complaints from those owners; if not they should start rolling in @ September.
AJ
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PMK
Active member
Sarcastically I say the easiest way to not have a DESS failure is to not insert the key. This may cause other problems, but it does solve the DESS problem. Sadly though, with no key inserted you have a garage queen...
The bottom line is BRP has a problem. We all tend to be in agreement that they have no idea how to actually accomplish a known good permanent repair.
BRP may simply be hedging a bet that if they can get the situation so the owner is no longer within warranty, then this big dollar repair will fall onto our own expense and BRP walks away fat, dumb and happy that they have played as ruthlessly as a scam insurance company.
Is a vehicle that refuses to acknowledge the onboard theft deterrent any less a danger than a faulty airbag, only when the system must be utilized. Other than that, each defective system is a problem waiting to happen. Granted a defective airbag could cause injury or death, but in the same grabbing at straws, what if one of the police versions of the Spyder leaves a patrolman stranded in a shootout?
BRP corporate can use the largest broom to sweep this under the smallest rug, but sooner or later, someone outside of BRP will force them to make a good permanent fix.
It truly is a shame that Canada and specifically BRP has so little intention to stand behind such a neat product. Yes they do stand behind it by tossing parts at it, but seriously, this is the equivalent of giving kids crayons and a coloring placemat when you go to a restaurant. Simply a low cost appeasement, the crayons simply make the kid quiet so other patrons of the restaurant are not bothered by the child IF they become noisy. Sadly it is that simple...
All the best with this, however it happens or turns out for you.
The bottom line is BRP has a problem. We all tend to be in agreement that they have no idea how to actually accomplish a known good permanent repair.
BRP may simply be hedging a bet that if they can get the situation so the owner is no longer within warranty, then this big dollar repair will fall onto our own expense and BRP walks away fat, dumb and happy that they have played as ruthlessly as a scam insurance company.
Is a vehicle that refuses to acknowledge the onboard theft deterrent any less a danger than a faulty airbag, only when the system must be utilized. Other than that, each defective system is a problem waiting to happen. Granted a defective airbag could cause injury or death, but in the same grabbing at straws, what if one of the police versions of the Spyder leaves a patrolman stranded in a shootout?
BRP corporate can use the largest broom to sweep this under the smallest rug, but sooner or later, someone outside of BRP will force them to make a good permanent fix.
It truly is a shame that Canada and specifically BRP has so little intention to stand behind such a neat product. Yes they do stand behind it by tossing parts at it, but seriously, this is the equivalent of giving kids crayons and a coloring placemat when you go to a restaurant. Simply a low cost appeasement, the crayons simply make the kid quiet so other patrons of the restaurant are not bothered by the child IF they become noisy. Sadly it is that simple...
All the best with this, however it happens or turns out for you.
PMK
Active member
RF and Electromagnetic Waves their addition, subtraction, harmonics etc. can play all kinds of havoc.
BUT
For them to combine in such a way to effect the KEY in a repeated fashion over the course of minutes, hours, days, weeks, months is a mathematical improbability!
If any of this were true, then let them explain the problem happening in the middle of desert without another vehicle or power line within the horizontal plane.
The problem is NOT too many waves, the problem is saturation of the key by the DESS module itself via the ignition switch. This was stated early on by BRP.
Why this happens for some and not others is an unknown to BRP.
However, the fix IS known.
Replace BOTH the DESS module AND the ignition switch. To date is the ONLY fix that PERMANENTLY works for those effected and BRP KNOWS this!
Why BRP Care does not come out and say this? No clue.
You need a dealership that will listen, a rider that is proactive and the job gets done right the first time.
It is also known that most of the failure occur UNDER 5K miles.
For over a year I jury-rigged fixes to keep me going until I started getting the error on a weekly basis. That became the last straw.
Went with photos in hand, part numbers in hand, and SpyderLovers posts in hand to the dealership.
No arguments from dealership, no arguments from BRP, they sent BOTH parts along with new keys and trailer lock.
Did it work?
Ask me in about 3K more miles!
As for the "old" parts, BRP requested dealership to return them (which is typically the case).
So BRP has been receiving the "bad" modules for well over a year and still no real solution has been forthcoming from BRP to the community at large.
HOWEVER, the workings of the 16 are said to be different from the 14-15 crop of RTs. So maybe they actually did learn something.
If the 16s are "fixed" we won't here complaints from those owners; if not they should start rolling in @ September.
AJ
God help the person that rides with a pacemaker or hearing aides. Two possibilities the RF from the medical devices will not let the person ride or the hearing aides or pacemaker may malfunction.
spyderCodes
Member
I think once triggered by a random event then what appears as repeats within a relatively small time window is really the DESS responding to the initial event.
But since I really don't know what goes on in that magic bit of technology, it's all conjecture.
IGETAROUND
Active member
To Steve @ BRP cares
Originally Posted by spyderCodes 
Okay, I'm going to try to explain something again.
All of the modern wonders of the age be it WI-fI, blue tooth or the swipe and pay at the pump generate waves.
Electro-Magnetic waves.
Ya can't see them but they are there.
There are a lot o curious properties associated with waves.
Waves can add to each other, subtract from each other and in general can beget waves of different frequencies.
This is what I think is happening with the DESS.
You drive into a gas stop, there are wi-fi , bluetooth and about a 1000 other devices blasting into either.
Your DESS RIFD receiver suddenly gets confused
Should it happen?
No
But it does happen
The combination of signals suddenly come together to tell your Spyder that the key is not valid.
Your Spyder is getting this info second hand.
Does this make it easier to excuse?
Probably not.
Originally Posted by spyderCodes
All right I'll by the above explanation. I have an "enhanced" drivers licence with an rfid chip in it; all that is done for shielding is an aluminium foil liner on the sleeve holder. If this works to shield that chip from being read indiscriminately, then by logic if it's outside interference causing the problem then simply wrapping the DESS module in aluminium foil should solve the problem. This would be easily accomplished (once you removed all the tupperware and partially disassembled the bike)
And don't forget this is not just an RT problem; it affects all the 2014 models. There are just more RT's sold. My ignition and module was replaced over 11K ago and so far no more problems.
There is definitely something that changed besides how the key is read and how that information is being handled by the electronics. Chips, modules, software code and other things I'm not bright enough to consider; something changed from 2014 forward.
Though as has been pointed out so far no 2016's have reported in with problems. Just my thoughts FWTW
Okay, I'm going to try to explain something again.
All of the modern wonders of the age be it WI-fI, blue tooth or the swipe and pay at the pump generate waves.
Electro-Magnetic waves.
Ya can't see them but they are there.
There are a lot o curious properties associated with waves.
Waves can add to each other, subtract from each other and in general can beget waves of different frequencies.
This is what I think is happening with the DESS.
You drive into a gas stop, there are wi-fi , bluetooth and about a 1000 other devices blasting into either.
Your DESS RIFD receiver suddenly gets confused
Should it happen?
No
But it does happen
The combination of signals suddenly come together to tell your Spyder that the key is not valid.
Your Spyder is getting this info second hand.
Does this make it easier to excuse?
Probably not.
All right I'll by the above explanation. I have an "enhanced" drivers licence with an rfid chip in it; all that is done for shielding is an aluminium foil liner on the sleeve holder. If this works to shield that chip from being read indiscriminately, then by logic if it's outside interference causing the problem then simply wrapping the DESS module in aluminium foil should solve the problem. This would be easily accomplished (once you removed all the tupperware and partially disassembled the bike)
And don't forget this is not just an RT problem; it affects all the 2014 models. There are just more RT's sold. My ignition and module was replaced over 11K ago and so far no more problems.
There is definitely something that changed besides how the key is read and how that information is being handled by the electronics. Chips, modules, software code and other things I'm not bright enough to consider; something changed from 2014 forward.
Though as has been pointed out so far no 2016's have reported in with problems. Just my thoughts FWTW
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