To Steve (BRPcare) about DESS issues

[spyderCodes]

Well as I said in a post a bit later all of this is just conjecture.
I think there has to be some external agent working here because I can't believe the DESS module design has so many problems because it is in use in autos too.
It could be the shielding provided by the car body prevents it.

Or maybe it is just a crappy design produced as cheaply as possible.
I dunno.

 

[PMK]

So then, to shield the system, are we assuming the incorrect RF is being read by the antenna which is within the keyed ignition switch, or are we now considering to shield all the wires and DESS module itself.

Unless we are having a serious super close proximity RF interference problem I would not expect anything to be induced into the wire harness or DESS module. AND if you shield the antenna, it will no longer work to read the reply from the key itself and / or the transponder function that triggers the key to emit the code will not happen as the triggering functioning will be blocked.

The comments by BRP about saturation of the key, what does that exactly mean. Is the key being triggered by another device? Is the ignition switch antenna over saturated and confused and with that unable to be smart enough to separate the good from the bad?

As I understand the system, the key has a digital code programmed into it. When the key is inserted into the ignition and powered, the ignition switch senses a key and acknowledges power has been applied. The ECM sees this and decides you wish to fire the engine. The ECM sends a signal to the DESS module and via key switch that passes through the antenna and tells the key to transpond the data stored on the key. The data sent by the key is then read by the DESS module and compared to known valid key numbers stored on the ECM.

Basically the master is the ECM and the DESS module and Key Switch are slaved units.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

DESS - SHIELDING

Al, even tho I'm not buying the " RFI " thing ( when it occurred to be - NONE of the CRITERIA was present ) ....I'm going to take your suggestion to wrap the MODULE........I can get my FRUNK OFF in 10 minutes or less - so that's not a problem.....I'm going to look into getting some LEAD FLASHING - it's very thin - they use it for " FLASHING " when a shingle roof meets a built chimney .......This DESS issue is SO :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: .......Mike

 

[spyderCodes]

Mike, a necklace of 13 cloves of garlic worn around your neck might help too.

 

[PMK]

Al, even tho I'm not buying the " RFI " thing ( when it occurred to be - NONE of the CRITERIA was present ) ....I'm going to take your suggestion to wrap the MODULE........I can get my FRUNK OFF in 10 minutes or less - so that's not a problem.....I'm going to look into getting some LEAD FLASHING - it's very thin - they use it for " FLASHING " when a shingle roof meets a built chimney .......This DESS issue is SO :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: .......Mike

You should also wrap the entire wire harness from the key switch to the DESS module, and from the ECM to the Key Switch

 

[PMK]

It would be crazy ironic if the fault was a system boot up issue that does not allow the DESS to be read, but that seems extreme considering there have been bikes fixed by replacing the DESS module, or the key switch or both

 

[billythekidd]

For what it is worth

I had the problem last year. I was getting the DESS error everyday. Depending how long I was out riding it would happen frequently. I took the bike to the dealer and they said there were currently 32 unrecognized key errors present. Before they were going to replace anything they asked if they could just reprogram the keys. That was last August and I have not had an error since. Nothing changed, garage door opener in same place, gps in same location, phone everything is the same but no errors. I have driven over 7k since and not had a problem. I don't know what the solution to everyone's problem is but for me a reprogram of the keys did the trick. No parts nothing new. 2014 RTL.

 

[PMK]

Al, even tho I'm not buying the " RFI " thing ( when it occurred to be - NONE of the CRITERIA was present ) ....I'm going to take your suggestion to wrap the MODULE........I can get my FRUNK OFF in 10 minutes or less - so that's not a problem.....I'm going to look into getting some LEAD FLASHING - it's very thin - they use it for " FLASHING " when a shingle roof meets a built chimney .......This DESS issue is SO :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: .......Mike

Mike, this is the stuff we would shield the aircraft systems, navigation and entertainment harnesses with to prevent stray effects from altering the signals down the wires.

Also, it was not uncommon on some of the systems, especially AC circuits or pulsed DC to use wires that were twisted and shielded.

http://www.mu-metal.com/

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

SHIELDING STUFF

Mike, this is the stuff we would shield the aircraft systems, navigation and entertainment harnesses with to prevent stray effects from altering the signals down the wires.

Also, it was not uncommon on some of the systems, especially AC circuits or pulsed DC to use wires that were twisted and shielded.

http://www.mu-metal.com/

:yes:...Thanks Paul, I'll call Monday and see if I can get a small amount ????.....or possibly a SAMPLE.... However knowing if this will actually work for the D.E.S.S. issue ????......I doubt if it will hurt........One thing I could suggest is ....The " MODULE " itself is very small with two plugs ( two wires to each plug ). So moving it to a location that is easily accessible, would make replacement a 5 min. job for the Dealer. If they have the module you do it in the parking lot, instead of leaving it there for a few weeks !!!!!!...... just a thought ........Mike :2excited:

 

[cuznjohn]

so i didn't get a answer, or i think i didn't. is this happening on the 15's and up, or does it happen to the 14's also. because as of today, i never had a problem with my 14 rt

 

[IGETAROUND]

Al, even tho I'm not buying the " RFI " thing ( when it occurred to be - NONE of the CRITERIA was present ) ....I'm going to take your suggestion to wrap the MODULE........I can get my FRUNK OFF in 10 minutes or less - so that's not a problem.....I'm going to look into getting some LEAD FLASHING - it's very thin - they use it for " FLASHING " when a shingle roof meets a built chimney .......This DESS issue is SO :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: .......Mike

Mike, This works for my patients:

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

TIN FOIL CAPS

Mike, This works for my patients:

:clap:.....Al, I was a " COP " for 37 years we always had one around for emergencies :roflblack:......You have no idea how many " Mentally STRESSED " people I calmed down by getting THEM to wear an aluminum foil cap........" It's the power of Positive Thinking Thing "......I'm not kidding ....Mike :thumbup:

 

[billybovine]

So then, to shield the system, are we assuming the incorrect RF is being read by the antenna which is within the keyed ignition switch, or are we now considering to shield all the wires and DESS module itself.

Unless we are having a serious super close proximity RF interference problem I would not expect anything to be induced into the wire harness or DESS module. AND if you shield the antenna, it will no longer work to read the reply from the key itself and / or the transponder function that triggers the key to emit the code will not happen as the triggering functioning will be blocked.

The comments by BRP about saturation of the key, what does that exactly mean. Is the key being triggered by another device? Is the ignition switch antenna over saturated and confused and with that unable to be smart enough to separate the good from the bad?

As I understand the system, the key has a digital code programmed into it. When the key is inserted into the ignition and powered, the ignition switch senses a key and acknowledges power has been applied. The ECM sees this and decides you wish to fire the engine. The ECM sends a signal to the DESS module and via key switch that passes through the antenna and tells the key to transpond the data stored on the key. The data sent by the key is then read by the DESS module and compared to known valid key numbers stored on the ECM.

Basically the master is the ECM and the DESS module and Key Switch are slaved units.

This is my understanding how it works.

When you turn the key on. The systems power up including the ECM and DESS. When the DESS powers up it sends pulsed DC current to the DESS Antenna. The DESS antenna is just a coil of wire in the shape of a donut around the barrel of the ignition switch. Think of it as the primary coil of a transformer. The key does not have a battery. So for it to work it gets it's power from the expanding or collapsing magnetic field from the DESS Antenna. There is a tiny coil of wire in the chip that creates the power for the chip. Think of it as the secondary coil in a transformer. The chip responds to the power created by transmitting, from what I read, a 32 digit code. There are billions of possible code combinations and for 2014 and later models thousands of possible codes this specific key could transmit. The DESS antenna picks up this transmission from the key and strips the carrier frequency from the code and sends it to the ECM. The ECM does the math and calculates if the code is a match to any of all the possible codes that could be sent by one of the keys programmed. If so the ECM allows the engine to start. Then for a unknown number of cycles that code will not be used again.

I am also puzzled by the term saturation in reference to the key. My best guess is there is too much power produced in the chip not allowing it to do anything. :dontknow:

 

[billybovine]

so i didn't get a answer, or i think i didn't. is this happening on the 15's and up, or does it happen to the 14's also. because as of today, i never had a problem with my 14 rt

The problem started for the 2014 models. That is when the vehicle immobilizer system was redesigned for a rolling code transponder in the key.

 

[garb55]

If RF signals are the cause of all this
The problem is easy to fix
Convince the entire population of North America to throw away all their devices that emit RF signals
Problem fixed :roflblack::roflblack:

 

[PMK]

This is my understanding how it works.

When you turn the key on. The systems power up including the ECM and DESS. When the DESS powers up it sends pulsed DC current to the DESS Antenna. The DESS antenna is just a coil of wire in the shape of a donut around the barrel of the ignition switch. Think of it as the primary coil of a transformer. The key does not have a battery. So for it to work it gets it's power from the expanding or collapsing magnetic field from the DESS Antenna. There is a tiny coil of wire in the chip that creates the power for the chip. Think of it as the secondary coil in a transformer. The chip responds to the power created by transmitting, from what I read, a 32 digit code. There are billions of possible code combinations and for 2014 and later models thousands of possible codes this specific key could transmit. The DESS antenna picks up this transmission from the key and strips the carrier frequency from the code and sends it to the ECM. The ECM does the math and calculates if the code is a match to any of all the possible codes that could be sent by one of the keys programmed. If so the ECM allows the engine to start. Then for a unknown number of cycles that code will not be used again.

I am also puzzled by the term saturation in reference to the key. My best guess is there is too much power produced in the chip not allowing it to do anything. :dontknow:

More in depth to specific details than what I posted. I would agree this sounds pretty correct. Is it possible the frequency is stripped by the DESS module rather than the antenna, or could it be stripped by the ECM? If the DESS module is a 2 connector with 2 wires per connector, then the DESS is probably as you say a DC to pulsed DC only type unit.

Reading this, it kind of makes me wonder how transient RF is overcoming the antenna, if the machine is supposedly smart enough to pull the logic of the key code out.

In regards to the DESS module, if it failed and only supplied DC instead of pulsed DC then it would indicate a single item failure. If the antenna failed, which seems to be the DESS item within the key switch failed, then the key would not become excited, and / or the signal could not be read. Having a logic circuit in the key switch is possible but seems silly since the real on board computer is ultimately making the decision I would expect.

Then again, it is BRP and seems incredibly over complicated.

I have not read them closely yet, but I did notice some electrical checks in the maintenance manual.

 

[Jheck]

this is the most information I have found on the Honda neowing reverse trike. To be released 2017/18?:clap:looks like it is going to happen.http://www.hondaprokevin.com/neowin...orcycle-hybrid-dct-3-wheel-reverse-trike-bike. https://rideapart.com/articles/honda-neowing-trike-didnt-know-wanted

 

[PMK]

this is the most information I have found on the Honda neowing reverse trike. To be released 2017/18?:clap:looks like it is going to happen.http://www.hondaprokevin.com/neowin...orcycle-hybrid-dct-3-wheel-reverse-trike-bike

Yes, I have seen that page also. Hoping they offer a touring series also.

 

[Jheck]

Yes, I have seen that page also. Hoping they offer a touring series also.

Me to! opcorn:opcorn:opcorn::yes::yes:

 

[PMK]

This is my understanding how it works.

When you turn the key on. The systems power up including the ECM and DESS. When the DESS powers up it sends pulsed DC current to the DESS Antenna. The DESS antenna is just a coil of wire in the shape of a donut around the barrel of the ignition switch. Think of it as the primary coil of a transformer. The key does not have a battery. So for it to work it gets it's power from the expanding or collapsing magnetic field from the DESS Antenna. There is a tiny coil of wire in the chip that creates the power for the chip. Think of it as the secondary coil in a transformer. The chip responds to the power created by transmitting, from what I read, a 32 digit code. There are billions of possible code combinations and for 2014 and later models thousands of possible codes this specific key could transmit. The DESS antenna picks up this transmission from the key and strips the carrier frequency from the code and sends it to the ECM. The ECM does the math and calculates if the code is a match to any of all the possible codes that could be sent by one of the keys programmed. If so the ECM allows the engine to start. Then for a unknown number of cycles that code will not be used again.

I am also puzzled by the term saturation in reference to the key. My best guess is there is too much power produced in the chip not allowing it to do anything. :dontknow:

Gave a quick look to the wiring schematic. The schematic shows a simple coil for the antenna, no logic circuits. All the checks listed, are to verify DESS module power input of 12v key on, <1v key off, and verify grounds of items and then verify grounds of the entire circuit. No checks posted on the exciter output to the antenna in the switch.

Want to add, I incorrectly stated the DESS module is 4 wire, it is in fact 5 wire. Fused feed I believe, two wires to the antenna, and two wires to the ECM, possibly case grounded also.

Next time the frunk is removed, I will clean and preserve a good ground. Same for the ECM.