Tires.... discussing tread types & patterns.

[larryd]

I have a question about tire traction ratings...I've been following this thread and find it very informative...

I plan to replace my Michelin Hydo Edge tire this winter...This is a "water shedding type tread tire" AND I REALLY LIKED THIS TIRE...

Traction rating is "A"...The TOURING tire I plan to use is also a Traction rating "A"...I see that most are using ALL SEASON Tires that are Traction rated "A"...

So my question is; In order to be rated "A"... ARE ALL THESE TIRES TESTED UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS TO RECEIVE THE "A" RATING???

SO ARE THE WATER SHEDDING TIRES, THE TOURING TIRES & THE ALL SEASON TIRES ALL GIVE THE EXACT SAME WET PERFORMANCE WITH THE "A" RATING???

 

[PMK]

I have a question about tire traction ratings...I've been following this thread and find it very informative...

I plan to replace my Michelin Hydo Edge tire this winter...This is a "water shedding type tread tire" AND I REALLY LIKED THIS TIRE...

Traction rating is "A"...The TOURING tire I plan to use is also a Traction rating "A"...I see that most are using ALL SEASON Tires that are Traction rated "A"...

So my question is; In order to be rated "A"... ARE ALL THESE TIRES TESTED UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS TO RECEIVE THE "A" RATING???

SO ARE THE WATER SHEDDING TIRES, THE TOURING TIRES & THE ALL SEASON TIRES ALL GIVE THE EXACT SAME WET PERFORMANCE WITH THE "A" RATING???

No doubt the two tire experts will chime in on this. That rating though is a bit misleading. While it is standardized test, it is a wet traction test, not dry traction. All the ratings are easily explained via the internet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Tire_Quality_Grading

 

[Peter Aawen]

......

So my question is; In order to be rated "A"... ARE ALL THESE TIRES TESTED UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS TO RECEIVE THE "A" RATING???

SO ARE THE WATER SHEDDING TIRES, THE TOURING TIRES & THE ALL SEASON TIRES ALL GIVE THE EXACT SAME WET PERFORMANCE WITH THE "A" RATING???

Without going into a whole lot of detail, much of which is covered in the link PMK provided above (look at the comments on who conducts the tests, & on the limitations of the treadwear gradings, which may also apply to other gradings! ) the answer to your question in bold above is broadly speaking, basically a YES!

However, while the answer to the next bit is not quite so clear cut ( ) it too is touched upon in the link; but at it's simplest, the answer to that second bit of your question is NO, not necessarily, their individual performance can vary somewhat with the range covered by that grading under those standardised test conditions, but they do all achieve AT LEAST SOMEWHERE in the range for that grading, without being good enough to achieve the next higher grading or poor enough to fall below that grading. And as mentioned in the link:

..... The testing does not take into account cornering, hydroplaning, acceleration or stopping on a dry surface. Nor does it account for the significantly different effectiveness of ABS versus non-ABS braking systems on a tire's stopping distance. ....

So the UTOG standards are a measurable & repeatable method of grading the treadwear, traction, & temperature shedding ability of a tire under the given conditions when subjected to the standardised testing methodology, which only minimises but does not remove all the possible variables that may affect your actual driving/riding, simply because no-one can account for all the possible variations that may occur & impact your particular driving/riding & the resulting effect upon your tires! But if you're looking at tires that have achieved different gradings, they're still a good guide to help you make a choice - and if you're looking at tires that have all achieved the same standard gradings, then you know that they are all capable of performing within the same range in those tests, and therefore are going to have similar minimum capabilities in real life, even if some might be a little better than others - but they weren't good enough to get into the next higher grading (if there is one, ie. they were good enough to be graded as an A, but weren't up to AA level) :lecturef_smilie:

Help any?! :dontknow:

 

[BajaRon]

In an effort to minimize another Bancation, I will simply politely disagree with your opinions about summer tires, the 70*f temp you mentioned as critical is new to me and not a temp I have seen published by a tire manufacturer or anyone for that matter, but will say that your referencing 40*f mimics the temperature Yokohama stated as the minimum for Summer High Performance tires.

I hope you don't mind me pulling out this single line from your reply. It's the only one I wanted to address and the post was fairly long.

First, not withstanding the oversite decisions made by the moderators. I never mind an opposing opinion. Everyone should be free to have their say. But I understand where you're coming from there. Some take things very personal.

I do need to clarify the 70 degree statement I made about summer tires. This (as you point out) is not any industry standard. But more of a Seat of the Pants experience I've had with a summer tire on my Spyder.

Car tire makers account for the expected weight the tire will be carrying as a factor in traction. As well they should. More weight means more traction in many situations. Our Spyders are much lighter than a car. Especially the rear wheel. And we know that as road surface temperatures dip, traction of a summer tire can suffer. 70 degrees may be a bit high. But my purpose was to inform that temperature can be a substantial detriment to a summer tire. On a very light Spyder rear tire. In my very limited experience, degradation may be felt in temperatures below 70 degrees (pavement, not ambient air).

I am always about discussion. It benefits us all.

 

[RapidSpyder]

Like the look of this tread, can’t wait to try it out.

 

[larryd]

Like the look of this tread, can’t wait to try it out.

View attachment 199851

Looks very similar to the Michelin Hydro Edge...larryd

 

[PMK]

I hope you don't mind me pulling out this single line from your reply. It's the only one I wanted to address and the post was fairly long.

First, not withstanding the oversite decisions made by the moderators. I never mind an opposing opinion. Everyone should be free to have their say. But I understand where you're coming from there. Some take things very personal.

I do need to clarify the 70 degree statement I made about summer tires. This (as you point out) is not any industry standard. But more of a Seat of the Pants experience I've had with a summer tire on my Spyder.

Car tire makers account for the expected weight the tire will be carrying as a factor in traction. As well they should. More weight means more traction in many situations. Our Spyders are much lighter than a car. Especially the rear wheel. And we know that as road surface temperatures dip, traction of a summer tire can suffer. 70 degrees may be a bit high. But my purpose was to inform that temperature can be a substantial detriment to a summer tire. On a very light Spyder rear tire. In my very limited experience, degradation may be felt in temperatures below 70 degrees (pavement, not ambient air).

I am always about discussion. It benefits us all.

Yes, discussion, a near perfect word to describe your reply, and this reply by me.

Simply, thank you for clarifying the 70*f references. I am unsure of which tire you ran and experienced it giving up grip at 70*f, and living here in SoFlo, obviously typical asphalt temps are well above 40*f and often well above 70*f. However, even in the cooler months, when asphalt temps are below 70*f, I have yet to experience an issue running a summer high performance tire on the rear. By your words though, you found a tire that did perform less than expected.

Still being mindful to avoid Bancation, and responding to your reply is simply discussion, your words very closely match my previous posts in the other topic. The vehicles weight on wheels (WOW) has a significant effect on the tires ability to grip the road surface. I fully agree with this. Expanding that further, and this was not well received in the other topic, touring tires are designed for heavier vehicles, and touring tires have less grip when compared equally to a performance tire (touring tires have even less grip than a summer high performance tire on a warm road surface).

Therefore WOW is a consideration. However, as my race driver friend suggested, maybe the Spyders performance ability, limitations of the design and chassis parameters, do not allow the increased grip offered by the performance tires to be utilized. Touring Tires, even though by design having less grip, fill the balance of cost, longevity, and available grip to make Spyder owners happy since they check the boxes of low cost, longevity, and the owners are not pushing their Spyder to the limits of the tires grip. Add to this many Spyder owners on this forum run tire pressures derived on the 4 psi increase at typical operating temps. This method / formula was not derived for the lighter weight Spyders, but rather derived for the heavier WOW vehicles. That said, if a typical small SUV with touring tires had an initial pressure of as an example 32 psi cold, and when at temp attained 36 psi, the percentage of pressure difference is far less than a Spyder tire with a cold pressure of 17 psi attaining 21 psi when at operating temp. Percentage wise it seems the SUV is a 12% increase while the Spyder is about 25% increase.

Bajaron, out of curiosity, and for safety to others, the Summer Performance tire you ran, that gave up grip at 70*f road temps, could you share that with us.

 

[rhino1]

Just wondering what tires u would put on, size and brand, front and rear, on my ‘22 RTL. I ride two up majority of the time, but when I do ride solo, I ride alittle aggressive. Rode two wheels all my life. First spyder. It sounds like a I would really like this spyder even more with different tires. O by the way, I’m turning the big 60 on the 22nd of November.��. Thanx for info. Rhino

 

[lvmyspyder]

Have read some good things about those tires. Like to hear more about your experience with it later on.

 

[lvmyspyder]

Hey Ron, thank you for the feedback. I liked the tread pattern and looks and the reviews of many of the premiere "summer tires" for the Spyder. I have spent MANY hours reading up on tires this past year and you are spot on with your assessment and comments and the are supported from a wide variety viewpoints and sources.

Summer tires are designed and manufactured for more ideal summer conditions and since we encounter many different riding conditions, IMHO, I think we put ourselves, or passengers and our machines at risk by not having an "all season" tire on all three corners. I am not an expert by any means, but that is one of the conclusions I have come to in my research.

I am replacing my OEM Kenda (finally) and have already replaced my fronts with Federal Formoza AZ01's. Both perform differently in wet versus dry and hot versus cooler or cold and I am sure position on the bike plays into it as well, but my experience is that in the same riding conditions, the variance in performance is exponentially worse on the OEM Kenda and not just saying that because I personally think that tire is sub-par.

 

[lvmyspyder]

All, wanted to say thanks again for the all the comments generated by this thread. Learned and learning A LOT. I wanted to let you know that I originally purchased a tire from Tire Rack off the web. It was the General Altimax RT45. I ordered in the 225 60 15 size and I think it would have fit my 18 RTL, but I wanted to reduce the overall circumference and the sidewall and after reading about everything I could find, here and elsewhere, I sent that back and got the same tire in the 215 60 15 size. My comments here are just make a hat tip to Tire Rack. They had daily communication with me. They had UPS out to pick up the first tire the day after I ordered the new tire (that was the only stipulation) which was easy because I was going to do that anyway. They still shipped the new one AND the first one for free and they did not have to because this was all on me. So anyway, thought that was pretty cool of them, especially nowdays with return policies and restocking fees etc. The other thing is that it made it from Nevada to Washington on like day two.

Also, thank you for all the feedback here to help educate and inform...much obliged.

 

[PMK]

Hey Ron, thank you for the feedback. I liked the tread pattern and looks and the reviews of many of the premiere "summer tires" for the Spyder. I have spent MANY hours reading up on tires this past year and you are spot on with your assessment and comments and the are supported from a wide variety viewpoints and sources.

Summer tires are designed and manufactured for more ideal summer conditions and since we encounter many different riding conditions, IMHO, I think we put ourselves, or passengers and our machines at risk by not having an "all season" tire on all three corners. I am not an expert by any means, but that is one of the conclusions I have come to in my research.

I am replacing my OEM Kenda (finally) and have already replaced my fronts with Federal Formoza AZ01's. Both perform differently in wet versus dry and hot versus cooler or cold and I am sure position on the bike plays into it as well, but my experience is that in the same riding conditions, the variance in performance is exponentially worse on the OEM Kenda and not just saying that because I personally think that tire is sub-par.

Interesting reply. While I totally agree that unless a persons local conditions exist to run a summer performance tire, which requires asphalt temps above 40*f, there is no detriment to running a quality (non summer, not temp limited) high performance tire instead of an all season touring tire with less grip.

Also interesting that on your Spyder, you have chosen to run Federal Formoza AZ01 front tires, which Federal describes in sales info as a high performance all season tire, and you will be running, a very high 75,000 expected miles on a passenger car, rear all season touring tire on the rear.

My own thoughts on this, I would prefer some understeer while cornering vs having the rear tire slip into oversteer. Last thing I have enjoyed is having the Spyder rear end pitch sideways while traveling. That was in a straight line when the rear tire hit deeper water, while accelerating, rear end headed to the right side about 12” to 18”. I easily recognized the situation, and brought the throttle back a bit and reacted more quickly than the nanny could to take over. Again no way I would want to have the Spyder rear end deciding it wanted to be the front.

The above mentioned oversteer event, plus wanting to improve the handling further through flowing corners, is why I need to find time to optimize the front roll center of the chassis without inducing tire scrub more than my current toe settings are.

 

[Snoking1127]

OK, I have Federal Formoza AZ01 165/55r15's on the front of my 2018 RT-L on the chrome starfish wheels. I have 15" Orb Series Front Wheels for the Can-Am Spyder (Set of 2) Chrome wheels on order, and thought I would just put new tires on the new rims and keep the old wheels and tires incase I decide to get a new Spyder. Well finding tires right now in very problematic!

Anyone bought tires recently? Make and size, and where you found them????

BTW I hate the look of the OEM starfish wheels. And original owner damaged to chrome tying it down in a toyhauler 5th wheel.

I really like the OEM 2019+ chrome wheels , however they are really expensive.

So!

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

OK, I have Federal Formoza AZ01 165/55r15's on the front of my 2018 RT-L on the chrome starfish wheels. I have 15" Orb Series Front Wheels for the Can-Am Spyder (Set of 2) Chrome wheels on order, and thought I would just put new tires on the new rims and keep the old wheels and tires incase I decide to get a new Spyder. Well finding tires right now in very problematic!

Anyone bought tires recently? Make and size, and where you found them????

BTW I hate the look of the OEM starfish wheels. And original owner damaged to chrome tying it down in a toyhauler 5th wheel.

I really like the OEM 2019+ chrome wheels , however they are really expensive.

So!

Have you checked with ON-LINE sources, I agree production is tight but folks who shop TireRack or Discount Tire seem to be able to get spyder tires in the sizes we use ..... If you go on-line, don't answer any questions nor talk to any sales people ... you are using car tires on a Motorcycle and there are legal issues with the folks who sell them....PS it's NOT illegal for you to use them, it's the selling that's an issue .....JMHO .... Mike :thumbup:

 

[Snoking1127]

Have you checked with ON-LINE sources, I agree production is tight but folks who shop TireRack or Discount Tire seem to be able to get spyder tires in the sizes we use ..... If you go on-line, don't answer any questions nor talk to any sales people ... you are using car tires on a Motorcycle and there are legal issues with the folks who sell them....PS it's NOT illegal for you to use them, it's the selling that's an issue .....JMHO .... Mike :thumbup:

I have been to one end and then the other on the internet. At least I have good Federals that I can dismount and put on the new wheels.

 

[askitee]

I know. A very overworked subject.

At the very least. If you're running a 'Summer' tire. Be aware of these tendencies.

Thanks Ron, Looks like I have been on the right track. Awesome bit of information.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I have been to one end and then the other on the internet. At least I have good Federals that I can dismount and put on the new wheels.

I suggested Tire Rack ... they have tires available ( right now ) for the front and rear .... they have the new RIKEN Raptor HR for the rear available ( right now ).... So maybe you need to expand your search ?????? .... JMHO .... Mike ....PS I won't recommend Federals, I think they aren't in the top ten rated tires

 

[Snoking1127]

I suggested Tire Rack ... they have tires available ( right now ) for the front and rear .... they have the new RIKEN Raptor HR for the rear available ( right now ).... So maybe you need to expand your search ?????? .... JMHO .... Mike ....PS I won't recommend Federals, I think they aren't in the top ten rated tires

Thanks! Ordered 175/55R-15 Vredestein Quatrac SL

I would note about the Federals, Discount Tire could not balance them because they did not have the right cone to mount them on the balancer. Having read that they need very little weight, I said just refund the cost of the balancing and roll them out to me. They have ran just fine and have been very smooth. The OEM Kenda's had a ton of weights on the wheels to balance them.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Thanks! Ordered 175/55R-15 Vredestein Quatrac SL

I would note about the Federals, Discount Tire could not balance them because they did not have the right cone to mount them on the balancer. Having read that they need very little weight, I said just refund the cost of the balancing and roll them out to me. They have ran just fine and have been very smooth. The OEM Kenda's had a ton of weights on the wheels to balance them.

I have bought quite a few tires for Spyders ( since 09 ) I have never had a problem getting FRONT tires balanced at any of the tire shops I brought them to ..... Mike :thumbup:

 

[Peteoz]

I have bought quite a few tires for Spyders ( since 09 ) I have never had a problem getting FRONT tires balanced at any of the tire shops I brought them to ..... Mike :thumbup:

I couldn’t get my fronts balanced at either my local tyre shop or bike shop, Mike. I ended up going to a local guy’s home shed. He restores old cars and had the right cones. There are a serious number of shops out there without the ability to balance Spyder tyres .

Pete