Front Sprocket Spline Failures

[dondje]

No doubt better than assembling dry, however, before considering an anti seize product, realize that often then tend to dry out when in service. Maybe have a look at the Honda and BMW driveshaft spline lubes or similar products. I do like anti seize in many applications, but not all applications.

I am guessing that you have never used this particular product. I have been using it for over 50yrs. I have a can of it that was my dad's that is over 40yo and it has not dried out. The lid hasn't been real tight on it either. I have used other anti-seize products that do dry out as you stated. But this one is the best.

My guess is that the factory installed product washes/wears away, leaving the metal exposed and increases play between sprocket and shaft. This product won't do that even when exposed to salt water on the underside of a ship's hull. It will also hold up to temps up to 2400 deg. I will be using new product for my Spyder.

Regards,

Don

 

[jcthorne]

From what I have read about this …. RT - RTs - RTL do not have the Red Dust issue ……. Mike hyea:

Unfortunately we have seen several RTs succumb to the same fate. Not as many as F3s but far more than zero.

 

[PMK]

Yes, well I know what fretting is but many of the pictures of the issue have the rust on the outside of the sprocket. So if the bolt is tight and it's sealed and fretting, how does the fretted material get out of the spline to the outside of the sprocket?

IMHO there's water involved. That Mariner's Choice never seize looks about the ticket to me! :thumbup:

All the best with your plan. If you fully understand fretting and the dynamics of how it is created, and propagates, plus have such faith in a using an anti seize vs more focused spline lubricant simply enjoy.

For others reading this, the pulley is made of steel, same as the gearbox output shaft. Many people assume that seeing the rust involves moisture or water. In normal cases, such as a body panel on a car, you see the rust and it has that typical reddish color. The reddish color is the conversion of the iron within the steel, into iron oxide. In that situation, yes, water corrodes the material when combined with other stuff. Fretting is a non moisture, high pressure type corrosion. The pressure within the joint of two or more items still allows microscopic movement. On aircraft we often see fretting as rivets with black rings around the heads. Aluminum oxide is blackish in color. Again, rivets are a high pressure expanded tightly fit when properly driven. The Spyder pulley, with tension from the drive belt, and the inability to prevent the pulley from walking around the splines of the shaft as the pulley rotates, creates the needed movement for fretting to occurr. As for the idea of moisture being the culprit, consider the heat given off by the engines exhaust, plus the gearbox shaft itself runs a touch warm. These applications of heat would minimize any water intrusion issues or concerns if they existed. Regardless of how tight the bolt is, the pulley will still walk as the shaft is turned. The bolt does not apply anywhere near enough friction to the pulley mounting to prevent the pulley from moving. Consider, if the splines were removed, would the bolt and washer alone be adequate to propel the Spyder forward. Obviously, no. The splines are responsible for 99.999999% of making the Spyder drive go to the wheel.

Could it be simply viable that as the splines fret, the pulley is now able to not only walk more on the splines, but also begin to not run true on center with the shaft AND with that, the washer and pulley faces begin to wear, creating the red dust from even more fretting that we see on the exterior of the pulley.

The drive pulley is a maintenance item and wear item. While not specified in the manual to routinely remove the drive pulley, clean the splines, inspect, and if serviceable, lubricate and reinstall. What interval to reinspect, with a quality proper lubricant a guess is the 28,000 mile check.

 

[h0gr1der]

I don't have a dog in this race (yet, mine is new), but wonder if the high belt tensions Can Am recommends may have anything to do with the splines failing?

 

[dondje]

All the best with your plan. If you fully understand fretting and the dynamics of how it is created, and propagates, plus have such faith in a using an anti seize vs more focused spline lubricant simply enjoy.

The drive pulley is a maintenance item and wear item. While not specified in the manual to routinely remove the drive pulley, clean the splines, inspect, and if serviceable, lubricate and reinstall. What interval to reinspect, with a quality proper lubricant a guess is the 28,000 mile check.

The anti seize that I referenced is an extreme high pressure lubricant designed for this type of application and more. It has an added benefit of anti seize properties and is extremely water proof. That is why the military uses it for all kinds of spline applications at sea and other extreme conditions. As I stated earlier, I believe that the factory lubricant breaks down. This creates an increased tolerance between the pulley and the shaft for wear (you call fretting), along with allowing water intrusion. Moisture's roll is when it does get in (yes it drys out, becoming a cycle), it helps breakdown of the lube even faster, and helps the acceleration of the color change of the iron dust.

My thought for using the product I introduced is that not only does it have some of the best lubricating properties I know of that are needed for this application. Read its spec sheet. Just as important, and what makes it stand out in this case, is it also has staying properties that I don't believe the factory or most any other lube has.

I agree with you that this a maintenance issue. I also believe from the millage that people are having problems at, that the stock lube should be replaced asap after purchase. What people use is up to them. I know what
I am going to use. From that point, only time will tell.

Regards,

Don

 

[Freddy]

PMK, I'm glad you've been able to clarify exactly what is happening to cause these failures - thank you.

However, I disagree with you on the point: Consider, if the splines were removed, would the bolt and washer alone be adequate to propel the Spyder forward. Obviously, no. The splines are responsible for 99.999999% of making the Spyder drive go to the wheel.

In my experience, the splines are not responsible for 'making the Spyder drive go to the wheels.' It is the clamping force of the bolt which does this by locking the component solidly together. This was in fact acknowledged in the TSB which BRP released back in 2009 when the problem first arose. The pulley was not designed to be a wear item but rather a sacrificial item IF adequate clamping force was ever lost, or never initially applied as we now see again.

FWIW, I bought my GS in Dec 2009 soon after this issue first arose and the release of that TSB. I purchased a new OEM bolt, did some minor research on what torque a bolt of that spec could take and found it to be about 10-15% higher (from memory) than what BRP recommended in the TSB, so I applied that higher torque. To this day and 96,000km later, the pulley on my trike shows no sign of red dust.

It seems to me that BRP have a short corporate memory in this regard.

I've suggested that folks apply Loctite 660 and 7471 primer to the splines if they find fretting in the early stage which, when effectively clamped with the bolt, may/should/could eliminate fretting.
:cheers:

PS I have seen a number of other automotive and industrial applications which rely on clamping force to transmit torque to splined components and I've seen a number where one part or the other is sacrificial.

 

[PMK]

PMK, I'm glad you've been able to clarify exactly what is happening to cause these failures - thank you.

However, I disagree with you on the point: Consider, if the splines were removed, would the bolt and washer alone be adequate to propel the Spyder forward. Obviously, no. The splines are responsible for 99.999999% of making the Spyder drive go to the wheel.

In my experience, the splines are not responsible for 'making the Spyder drive go to the wheels.' It is the clamping force of the bolt which does this by locking the component solidly together. This was in fact acknowledged in the TSB which BRP released back in 2009 when the problem first arose. The pulley was not designed to be a wear item but rather a sacrificial item IF adequate clamping force was ever lost, or never initially applied as we now see again.

FWIW, I bought my GS in Dec 2009 soon after this issue first arose and the release of that TSB. I purchased a new OEM bolt, did some minor research on what torque a bolt of that spec could take and found it to be about 10-15% higher (from memory) than what BRP recommended in the TSB, so I applied that higher torque. To this day and 96,000km later, the pulley on my trike shows no sign of red dust.

It seems to me that BRP have a short corporate memory in this regard.

I've suggested that folks apply Loctite 660 and 7471 primer to the splines if they find fretting in the early stage which, when effectively clamped with the bolt, may/should/could eliminate fretting.
:cheers:

PS I have seen a number of other automotive and industrial applications which rely on clamping force to transmit torque to splined components and I've seen a number where one part or the other is sacrificial.

If you understand my explanation of how the actual movement of the pulley on the shaft is occurring, you could then realize that by tightening the bolt further, you eliminated the movement. No movement, no fretting corrosion.

Again, the splines are responsible for making the coupling work and moving the Spyder. Beyond the mechanical aspect, if a manufacturer could utilize a straight smooth round shaft, with a pulley that had a straight smooth bore, that is a substantial cost saving to manufacture.

They utilize splines to carry the load. Even machines with a fraction of the horsepower a Spyder puts out utilize splines, or a key. A simple machine, the bicycle must use either square tapers, cotter wedge pins, or splines to keep the left and right pedals aligned. The bicycle even employs splines or drive lugs to couple the rear sprockets or cassette to the hub.

The bolt simply retains the pulley, the splines accomplish the torque load through the shaft. Tightening the bolt further simply eliminated the relative movement of the pulley on the shaft at the loads imposed upon it.

The means to eliminate fretting, stop the relative movement, or lubricate the joint.

 

[Freddy]

If you understand my explanation of how the actual movement of the pulley on the shaft is occurring, you could then realize that by tightening the bolt further, you eliminated the movement. No movement, no fretting corrosion.

Again, the splines are responsible for making the coupling work and moving the Spyder. Beyond the mechanical aspect, if a manufacturer could utilize a straight smooth round shaft, with a pulley that had a straight smooth bore, that is a substantial cost saving to manufacture.

They utilize splines to carry the load. Even machines with a fraction of the horsepower a Spyder puts out utilize splines, or a key. A simple machine, the bicycle must use either square tapers, cotter wedge pins, or splines to keep the left and right pedals aligned. The bicycle even employs splines or drive lugs to couple the rear sprockets or cassette to the hub.

The bolt simply retains the pulley, the splines accomplish the torque load through the shaft. Tightening the bolt further simply eliminated the relative movement of the pulley on the shaft at the loads imposed upon it.

The means to eliminate fretting, stop the relative movement, or lubricate the joint.

Agreed - that's precisely what BRP engineers were wanting to achieve and did so successfully - until more recent years!

We differ on this point in this application though : Again, the splines are responsible for making the coupling work and moving the Spyder.
EXACTLY! This is why they are failing.


Beyond the mechanical aspect, if a manufacturer could utilize a straight smooth round shaft, with a pulley that had a straight smooth bore, that is a substantial cost saving to manufacture.
Many do and use a woodruff key just in case, however I don't expect to see it in a motorcycle application due to the sophisticated nature of transmissions.

:cheers:

Whatever the cause, they sure ain't reliable and that's the problem for all concerned - especially the rider.

 

[PMK]

Agreed - that's precisely what BRP engineers were wanting to achieve and did so successfully - until more recent years!

We differ on this point in this application though : Again, the splines are responsible for making the coupling work and moving the Spyder.
EXACTLY! This is why they are failing.


Beyond the mechanical aspect, if a manufacturer could utilize a straight smooth round shaft, with a pulley that had a straight smooth bore, that is a substantial cost saving to manufacture.
Many do and use a woodruff key just in case, however I don't expect to see it in a motorcycle application due to the sophisticated nature of transmissions.

:cheers:

Whatever the cause, they sure ain't reliable and that's the problem for all concerned - especially the rider.

A Woodruff key or straight key is simply a single spline fit when utilized on a straight shaft. The key applies the driving force. In a tapered shaft setup, the taper, when fitted correctly applies the driving force with no need for a key, except alignment.

 

[Freddy]

I agree fully with the last sentence PMK, but not the second in all applications. Our hands-on experience and knowledge is obviously different - perhaps in quite different industries as you alluded to earlier.

When it's broken, it's broken- and that's the worry


Ride safe. :cheers:

 

[mike1952]

26 thousand miles my 2016 rts pulley failed

 

[007james]

My 2016 RT Limited Sprocket failed at 21,500 miles, was “fixed”, and has again failed at 33,800 miles, worse than before. This time, I had virtually no warning before the grinding, squealing, and whining started happening. After reading all of the comments, plus having my experiences, I am wondering why the grinding only occurs on deceleration, and not during full throttle Acceleration? If the shaft splines are stripped or worn too thin to keep the sprocket secure, I vision slippage and grinding both ways. Also, what about damage to the Shaft Bearing? The extreme grinding sounds and feels like failed Bearings, grinding and chattering metal against metal. I successfully drove my Spyder to the Dealer yesterday, 50 miles away, at speeds up to 60 MPH, and all was smooth unless I was even slightly, decelerating on down hill grades, then I expected a seizure any time! My wife was behind me in our Explorer, so in case it did seize, she would protect me from getting rear ended by another Vehicle. It was a relief when I finally got to tne Dealer safely! So, do we Spyder Owners of 1330 Spyders just be expected to suck it up, and accept knowing our Sprocket/shaft/spline will fail every 10 to 20 thousand miles on our Vehicles with out a permanent Fix by BRB Engineers? What about those with out Warrantees? Are they all SOL? I never had the Sprocket problem with my 2012 RT Limited during the 55,300 miles I rode it. So, obviously, the higher Torque of the 1330 must be what has caused the problem to surface.

From what I have read about this …. RT - RTs - RTL do not have the Red Dust issue ……. Mike hyea:

 

[toolie]

After following this and other threads and seeing others thoughts and experiences, I have been able to choose the right path for me.
On my 17 f3 limited with 6100 miles I will pull the pulley clean the splines and put loctite moly paste #LB 8012 on the splines and loctite blue 242 on the bolt and torque it to 96 lbs.

Thanks for all the comments

 

[Freddy]

Buy a new bolt - it comes with thread locker already on it.

 

[PMK]

After following this and other threads and seeing others thoughts and experiences, I have been able to choose the right path for me.
On my 17 f3 limited with 6100 miles I will pull the pulley clean the splines and put loctite moly paste #LB 8012 on the splines and loctite blue 242 on the bolt and torque it to 96 lbs.

Thanks for all the comments

Sounds like a very good plan. I would add though, if you see any residue of the oxides from fretting, replace the pulley. If it were me, I would utilize a light colored or glass bowl, large enough to submerge the pulley. Partially fill with Iso alcohol. Then, without submerging the pulley initially, wash the splines and center bore with an old toothbrush. Pass the brush through the bore dipping into the alcohol, and then washing the splines over the alcohol to let any debris drop into the bowl. This will allow a good visual indication by seeing oxide remnants into to alcohol, at the bottom of the bowl.

If no oxides are noticed, wash the entire pulley and output shaft splines very clean. Reinspect for wear, hopefully none is noticed. Lubricate and install the fastener. Once you have accomplished the task, future inspections and reapplication of lubricant is fairly quick and easy. As a suggestion, reinspect at around 14,000 miles, then at the 28,000 mile scheduled maintenance. I suspect with moly paste, the interval will then be at each 28,000 mile scheduled maintenance therafter.

 

[007james]

This procedure is only for people who do their own maintenance, not for us who don’t even change our own Oil. Heck, if BRP provided Sprockets that weren’t Crap, we would never have to deal with such reoccurring problems. There HAS to be reasonable permanent fixes to the crappy Sprocket failures. They could either Hard Chrome plate the spline area of the Sprockets, or Electroless Nickel plate the spline area, or change the entire Sprocket from crappy chinese steel to Stainless Steel that would not disintegrate. They could even use a Stainless Steel Spline insert only, in the core of the crappy steel Sprocket. The problem should be , BRP’s problem, not Dealer’s & Owner’s problem. Its a good thing BRP doesn't build Aircraft! There would be many crashes and fatalities!

Sounds like a very good plan. I would add though, if you see any residue of the oxides from fretting, replace the pulley. If it were me, I would utilize a light colored or glass bowl, large enough to submerge the pulley. Partially fill with Iso alcohol. Then, without submerging the pulley initially, wash the splines and center bore with an old toothbrush. Pass the brush through the bore dipping into the alcohol, and then washing the splines over the alcohol to let any debris drop into the bowl. This will allow a good visual indication by seeing oxide remnants into to alcohol, at the bottom of the bowl.

If no oxides are noticed, wash the entire pulley and output shaft splines very clean. Reinspect for wear, hopefully none is noticed. Lubricate and install the fastener. Once you have accomplished the task, future inspections and reapplication of lubricant is fairly quick and easy. As a suggestion, reinspect at around 14,000 miles, then at the 28,000 mile scheduled maintenance. I suspect with moly paste, the interval will then be at each 28,000 mile scheduled maintenance therafter.

 

[Freddy]

Hey PMK, why would you recommend this? Lubricate and install the fastener.

 

[stmike 1800]

A slight taper and proper torque ,and the problem would never show it's ugly head .

 

[Freddy]

You got that right Mike. :yes: Send that suggestion to BRP. :bdh:

 

[PMK]

This procedure is only for people who do their own maintenance, not for us who don’t even change our own Oil. Heck, if BRP provided Sprockets that weren’t Crap, we would never have to deal with such reoccurring problems. There HAS to be reasonable permanent fixes to the crappy Sprocket failures. They could either Hard Chrome plate the spline area of the Sprockets, or Electroless Nickel plate the spline area, or change the entire Sprocket from crappy chinese steel to Stainless Steel that would not disintegrate. They could even use a Stainless Steel Spline insert only, in the core of the crappy steel Sprocket. The problem should be , BRP’s problem, not Dealer’s & Owner’s problem. Its a good thing BRP doesn't build Aircrafts! There would be many crashes and fatalities!

Overall, the failures for many have been correct in that the gearbox output shaft is not destroyed, and the pulley is a sacrificial item at lower cost for the part and much lower cost on labor.

Our 2014 RTS was delivered from BRP with lubricated splines and had no issues when I removed the pulley for inspection.

Altering the pulleys material, adding coatings or any other change that could ruin the gearbox shaft is counterproductive.

While owners may not be acceptable to a scheduled maintenance item. The pulleys should be installed lubricated and have a scheduled maintenance interval. If an owner elects to override and skip the maintenance with a resulting failure, then so be it.