Front Sprocket Spline Failures

[aka1004]

Is moly paste safe to use on rubber O-Ring like one on rear wheel hub?

 

[PMK]

PMK thanks for all that good info.

I view of this, it would seem prudent though for the benefit of all, for you to amend your advice in post 35 to lubricate the bolt, in light of the conflicting procedure you have described above. :cheers:

Not the best description by my words, but avoid reading too much into it. Lubricate, as in apply lubricant to the splines and faying surfaces, not lubricate the bolt.

 

[PMK]

Is moly paste safe to use on rubber O-Ring like one on rear wheel hub?

Probably, but why? Moly is messy to work with. Quality grease is a better choice.

 

[TerryTheSpyderRyder]

That powder comes from iron particles coming off the drive sprocket and spline, being exposed to dampness and then rusting. Moisture can't get to the splines directly. The drive sprocket is basically coming apart, and when you start seeing the red powder, time to change the sprocket-and lube the splines while you're at it.

 

[TerryTheSpyderRyder]

The anti seize that I referenced is an extreme high pressure lubricant designed for this type of application and more. It has an added benefit of anti seize properties and is extremely water proof. That is why the military uses it for all kinds of spline applications at sea and other extreme conditions. As I stated earlier, I believe that the factory lubricant breaks down. This creates an increased tolerance between the pulley and the shaft for wear (you call fretting), along with allowing water intrusion. Moisture's roll is when it does get in (yes it drys out, becoming a cycle), it helps breakdown of the lube even faster, and helps the acceleration of the color change of the iron dust.

My thought for using the product I introduced is that not only does it have some of the best lubricating properties I know of that are needed for this application. Read its spec sheet. Just as important, and what makes it stand out in this case, is it also has staying properties that I don't believe the factory or most any other lube has.

I agree with you that this a maintenance issue. I also believe from the millage that people are having problems at, that the stock lube should be replaced asap after purchase. What people use is up to them. I know what
I am going to use. From that point, only time will tell.

Regards,

Don

Also, extreme belt tension can cause/hasten wear on the drive sprocket and counter shaft splines. If it's whining back there, loosen the tension until it's just tight enough to be quiet and have no slop.

 

[Freddy]

. The drive sprocket is basically coming apart, and when you start seeing the red powder, time to change the sprocket-and lube the splines while you're at it.

:thumbup:

 

[Freddy]

Also, extreme belt tension can cause/hasten wear on the drive sprocket and counter shaft splines. If it's whining back there, loosen the tension until it's just tight enough to be quiet and have no slop.

That's guess work. Correct tension is better but EXTREME tension certainly ain't.

 

[007james]

If moisture getting in to the steel splines of the steel Drive Shaft and Sprocket splines is causing enough problems to destroy the splines,....just imagine what SALT added to the roads in the Winter does , mixed in with the water from the road!! I ride all Winter, here in Virginia, every day the temp. is 40 Degrees or above, and not raining. There is Salt on the roads all Winter, so has obviously spiced the Splines of my Sprocket and Drive Shaft. Hard Chrome Plating the Splines of both the Shaft and Sprocket would solve the problem, or changing to Stainless steel Sprocket and Shaft would also solve such a burdensome problem.

That powder comes from iron particles coming off the drive sprocket and spline, being exposed to dampness and then rusting. Moisture can't get to the splines directly. The drive sprocket is basically coming apart, and when you start seeing the red powder, time to change the sprocket-and lube the splines while you're at it.

 

[Freddy]

Please read this thread from the start for a informed discussion of the subject. :cheers:

 

[PMK]

If moisture getting in to the steel splines of the steel Drive Shaft and Sprocket splines is causing enough problems to destroy the splines,....just imagine what SALT added to the roads in the Winter does , mixed in with the water from the road!! I ride all Winter, here in Virginia, every day the temp. is 40 Degrees or above, and not raining. There is Salt on the roads all Winter, so has obviously spiced the Splines of my Sprocket and Drive Shaft. Hard Chrome Plating the Splines of both the Shaft and Sprocket would solve the problem, or changing to Stainless steel Sprocket and Shaft would also solve such a burdensome problem.

Sadly, if you were to chrome plate splines, due to material buildup from plating, it would be impossible to produce a proper fit. Add to the, I believe chrome is like other plating processes, and has a difficult time depositing plating material into holes or other sharp edged shapes.

Moisture is certainly not the issue. Fretting is a non moisture corrosion event. The two methods to prevent corrosion, either lubricate the joint, or prevent movement in the joint.

If you truly want a lifelong front pulley setup, take the bolts washer and convert it from round to D shaped. Install the bolt and modified washer and torque to specs. Either yourself or get a helper and in the area of the cutaway portion of the was, weld the pulley to the gearbox shaft. Once cooled, remove the bolt and washer, and fully weld the pulley to the gearbox shaft. Grind it flat and smooth, assuming you got ample weld penetration, and install a new bolt with built in washer.

Doing this will stop relative movement and end the spline wear problem. Spyder are not prone to gearbox failures, so pulley removal can be dealt with at a much later time, if ever.

Myself though, I will continue on the plan I started with to remove, inspect and relubricate at certain intervals.

Actually, after giving the welded on pulley idea some thought, I believe for many of the complainers, this would be a very viable method of curing the issue.

 

[Freddy]

PMK, I like your thinking - that would certainly be the procedure to adopt if/when the shaft is damaged after repeat failures (out of warranty) as some are seeing. In fact, I recall 1 or 2 posts from years back on this very point, to obviate the need for shaft replacement.

 

[007james]

Once my Warrantee runs out, if I still have it, and decide to keep it, I will definitely research welding the Pulley to the Drive Shaft. But really, wouldn’t Stainless Steel Pulley and Shaft eliminate this reoccurring problem? As for Hard Chrome Plating, you are correct. Even distribution of the plated chrome in the low current density areas of the splines would not be conducive to permanently eradicating the problem. But the splines “ could” very well be plated with Electroless Nickel, which is an immersion, Autocatalytic Process, of deposition of Nickel, which is very hard, and corrosion resistant to moisture and salt. Of course, once the Drive Shaft was too damaged , it would be too late, but the new Sprocket Splines could be plated. The leading edges of Helicopter Blades are plated with Electroless nickel , where ever they are used in areas where sand deteriorates the blades.
007james

Sadly, if you were to chrome plate splines, due to material buildup from plating, it would be impossible to produce a proper fit. Add to the, I believe chrome is like other plating processes, and has a difficult time depositing plating material into holes or other sharp edged shapes.

Moisture is certainly not the issue. Fretting is a non moisture corrosion event. The two methods to prevent corrosion, either lubricate the joint, or prevent movement in the joint.

If you truly want a lifelong front pulley setup, take the bolts washer and convert it from round to D shaped. Install the bolt and modified washer and torque to specs. Either yourself or get a helper and in the area of the cutaway portion of the was, weld the pulley to the gearbox shaft. Once cooled, remove the bolt and washer, and fully weld the pulley to the gearbox shaft. Grind it flat and smooth, assuming you got ample weld penetration, and install a new bolt with built in washer.

Doing this will stop relative movement and end the spline wear problem. Spyder are not prone to gearbox failures, so pulley removal can be dealt with at a much later time, if ever.

Myself though, I will continue on the plan I started with to remove, inspect and relubricate at certain intervals.

Actually, after giving the welded on pulley idea some thought, I believe for many of the complainers, this would be a very viable method of curing the issue.

 

[PMK]

Once my Warrantee runs out, if I still have it, and decide to keep it, I will definitely research welding the Pulley to the Drive Shaft. But really, wouldn’t Stainless Steel Pulley and Shaft eliminate this reoccurring problem? As for Hard Chrome Plating, you are correct. Even distribution of the plated chrome in the low current density areas of the splines would not be conducive to permanently eradicating the problem. But the splines “ could” very well be plated with Electroless Nickel, which is an immersion, Autocatalytic Process, of deposition of Nickel, which is very hard, and corrosion resistant to moisture and salt. Of course, once the Drive Shaft was too damaged , it would be too late, but the new Sprocket Splines could be plated. The leading edges of Helicopter Blades are plated with Electroless nickel , where ever they are used in areas where sand deteriorates the blades.
007james

Which helicopters are you referring too.

Stainless is often prone to galling in some types. As for nickel, not so sure that will cover any better than chrome. Plus, to be truly effective, often it is best to apply copper substate to the steel before the nickel. I am currently working on my Rickman motorcycle, which has a nickel plated frame, they certainly plated it with some thin areas.

Leading back to helicopters, if you have hands on experience with them, then you should realize the number of splined couplings involved. If you check, pretty sure none are run without lubricant...

 

[007james]

PKG,.....I was once the Plant Supervisor for 5 years of a Plating shop called “ EMF”, i.e. Electronics Metal Finishing. We Nickel Plated , as well as Nickel Electroformed the leading edges of Sikorsky Helicopter Blades, when I was there. Apache Helicopters also use Nickel on their Blades. We also deposited Nickel on Aluminum Rotors, as well as sophisticated Wave Guides. My Career was Plating, Metal Finishing, and Environmental, so there hasn’t been many Metal Surfaces or exotic Plating I have not done, during my Career. I once found a Rat floating in our Nitric Acid Strip tank, and plated it with Gold, and gave it to my Boss for his Desk. I sprayed the Rat with Silver impregnated paint, after positioning the Rat sitting on its back legs ready to leap. After the paint dried, it made the Rat’s surface conductive, enough to accept a Copper Plate, followed by Copper Electroform, followed by Nickel Electroform, followed by Bright Nickel Plate, Gold Strike , then bright gold plated! The Gold Rat was the prized discussion piece on my Boss’s desk for years,....until it started leaking rotting liquid on his desk! I must have missed a Void in the Rat’s body, and it was not Hermetically sealed with the plated deposits.
https://prabook.com/web/james.sutherland/661603

Which helicopters are you referring too.

Stainless is often prone to galling in some types. As for nickel, not so sure that will cover any better than chrome. Plus, to be truly effective, often it is best to apply copper substate to the steel before the nickel. I am currently working on my Rickman motorcycle, which has a nickel plated frame, they certainly plated it with some thin areas.

Leading back to helicopters, if you have hands on experience with them, then you should realize the number of splined couplings involved. If you check, pretty sure none are run without lubricant...

 

[PMK]

FWIW, on the Sikorskys, the nickel is a cap over the titanium leading edge that is adhesive bonded over the blades composite structure. Removing the nickel cap is a challenge to remove.

At one previous job, besides operating and overseeing the entire NDT lab, I was also tasked with maintaining the baths for Type 1 anodize, cadmium plating, plus the strip tanks and haz mat. Never enjoyed any of that. Next job, besides structure work, I was doing brush plating, plus maintaining that.

While not at your level in regards to plating, I have a little bit of experience with it.

So, that leads me to ask, I need a method to strip nickel from steel without destruction to the bronze welding that joins the tubes of my 1971 Rickman Metisse frame. Seems no plating shops that are local have a tank adequate to handle the frames dimensions.

 

[007james]

PMK,...nice to know there is at least one other Ex Fellow Plater here on Spyder Lovers and a Spyder riding Plater! Hoping we are not headed too far off Topic on this Sprocket thread, .......stripping Nickel plating off a combination of steel and bronze weld is going to be a problem for you. The Stripper that will dissolve Nickel off steel with out etching the steel will etch the bronze badly, and the Stripper that will strip Nickel from Bronze will etch the steel badly. Reverse plating the Nickel off the frame, while watching to stop when the bronze weld is first exposed, would be the safest way to proceed. Its been awhile since I have worked for Chemical Suppliers, so there might be some new proprietary Chemical stripper on the Market that will strip nickel plating from both steel and bronze with out etching either. But it will be a real challenge. If it were me, I’d first try to MASK the bronze weld areas, with a Masking Paint, then use a Nickel from steel Stripper, cold, to strip the Nickel off steel. One Lb. Per Gal. Of Sodium Cyanide, with 4 oz. per Gal. of Sodium Metanitro benzine sultanate would strip the nickel off steel with out etching it, but would attack the bronze. But needing such a large Tank of the Chemical will be more than a home garage project. I suggest contacting a few local Plating Contract Shops in your area to get help from. Good luck!!
Here is a Link to my last published Plating Article, in Metal Finishing Magazine, about 6 months before I retired, in 2010. My “ Last Hurrah” before retiring.
https://www.materialstoday.com/metal-finishing/features/considerations-in-the-finishing-equipment/
007james

FWIW, on the Sikorskys, the nickel is a cap over the titanium leading edge that is adhesive bonded over the blades composite structure. Removing the nickel cap is a challenge to remove.

At one previous job, besides operating and overseeing the entire NDT lab, I was also tasked with maintaining the baths for Type 1 anodize, cadmium plating, plus the strip tanks and haz mat. Never enjoyed any of that. Next job, besides structure work, I was doing brush plating, plus maintaining that.

While not at your level in regards to plating, I have a little bit of experience with it.

So, that leads me to ask, I need a method to strip nickel from steel without destruction to the bronze welding that joins the tubes of my 1971 Rickman Metisse frame. Seems no plating shops that are local have a tank adequate to handle the frames dimensions.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

So I have been thinking about using this since the solution changed from locking things down. Just been waiting to do my rear tire change at the same time.

Have had it around all my life as my dad was a navy and merchant marine, ship board maintenance electrician.

Regards,

Don

BTW: Don't get it on your hands or clothing. It doesn't wash out.

"Mariner's Choice NMCBT-8, Marine Grade Never Seez, provides extreme pressure lubrication and protects against seizure, galling, and corrosion both above and below the water line. Use on winches, cables, bilge pumps, anchor lines, porthole studs, rigging, hoist cables, suspension bridges, wind turbines, offshore rigging, or other applications exposed to harsh salt water and freshwater conditions. Requires about 41% less torque while providing the same clamping force on threads. Perfect for high moisture environments!"

View attachment 172518

I checked the price …. not cheap, $19.99 , but it is Free Ground shipping ….. so if this works :clap::clap::clap:...……….Mike hyea:

 

[PMK]

I checked the price …. not cheap, $19.99 , but it is Free Ground shipping ….. so if this works :clap::clap::clap:...……….Mike hyea:

The Honda spline lube is similar or less expensive and purpose specific for lubricating splines. Seems that could be a better choice, but whatever works.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

The Honda spline lube is similar or less expensive and purpose specific for lubricating splines. Seems that could be a better choice, but whatever works.

:clap:....Thanks , but I seem to remember reading they don't sell it anymore …… the Bostik was for 8 oz., so enough to share or multiple applications …. PS I have 45,000+ miles …. and I don't see any RED DUST etc …. Mike hyea:

 

[PMK]

:clap:....Thanks , but I seem to remember reading they don't sell it anymore …… the Bostik was for 8 oz., so enough to share or multiple applications …. PS I have 45,000+ miles …. and I don't see any RED DUST etc …. Mike hyea:

When deciding on a spline lube for our machine, the Honda dealer had the stuff in stock.

Honda does not make the paste, I believe it is just Molykote M77