Front Sprocket Spline Failures

[PMK]

A slight taper and proper torque ,and the problem would never show it's ugly head .

Absolutely true, stop the relative movement and fretting does not occur.

Tapered splines are more costly to manufacture and will require a puller for pulley removal. Lubricated straight splinescan be very acceptable, if maintained.

 

[PMK]

Hey PMK, why would you recommend this? Lubricate and install the fastener.

You can, however the lubricant will override the thread locker and the bolt may loosen unless safetied somehow.

 

[Freddy]

You can, however the lubricant will override the thread locker and the bolt may loosen unless safetied somehow.

Thanks for the prompt reply PMK. Yeah I was just curious as the lubricate and install the fastener conflicts with the factory service manual ( well, at least my old copy).

It's really good of you to now add that very important clarification for toolie's benefit and perhaps others. But that raises another question - how would you suggest it be safetied?

 

[aka1004]

Ok so is it grease on spline and loctite on thread? Or with that no-seez, use that for both?
I had 3 sprocket failures on my 09 including complete failure where they had to replace whole shebang, tearing the engine apart.
Current RS have 10k without an issue but I’m sure it’s coming and I would like to prevent it this time.
Thank you.

 

[Freddy]

In the middle of reply 26 I detailed what I did to mine. Perhaps others will chime in too.

 

[toolie]

No grease on the spline, moly paste will last much longer and stand up to the heat much better.

 

[toolie]

The recommendation was a new bolt or using locktite threadlocker on the threads, and torqing the bolt 4 lbs greater than the recommended 92 foot pounds.

 

[aka1004]

Ok so moly paste on spline, loctite on thread.
Thank you.

 

[PMK]

I know some will be agitated by this, but on Finless Bobs FB group I posted photos of the task and what I did, but never posted them here. If someone decides too, they could retrieve them and post them.

In short, the pulley was removed. The pulley was washed with solvent and the gearbox shaft was washed with solvent also. Both were visually inspected. The shaft and pulley bore were lubricated with moly paste. I had purchased a new bolt with the builtin washer. The new bolt had the head drilled for safety wire. The threads of the bolt were not coated with anything. The shank of the bolt was coated with Mastinox corrosion prevention compound. Pretty certain, moly paste, but could have been Mastinox was applied to the fay surface of the pulley and built in washer. Everything was assembled wet with products described. The bolt was torqued to specs with a calibrated torque wrench. Once torqued, the bolt was safety wired to prevent any loosening unless the safety wire were to break. After safety wiring, the drilled hole in the bolt head was sealed with non acidic RTV silicone.

Wanted to add, the new bolt came with pre applied locking compound, no other thread locking compound was utilized.

 

[aka1004]

Is loctite 51048 same thing?
65% moly.
If not, I will go with Honda moly paste m77, also 65% and supposed to real good.

 

[Freddy]

I can't locate those FB details PMK. Can you please post a pic of how/what you tied the head of the bolt to. Thank you. :2thumbs:


EDIT: I now understand :yes: The pulley face on your machine has holes to loop the wire thru. The early ones did not. :banghead:

There now, my inquiring mind is more understanding. And the best substitute for brains is .......silence. :bowdown:

When fretting has take place, tension on the bolt will be reduced, enabling the rate of wear to increase. But the bolt shouldn't fall out even without the wire tie due to the factory applied thread locker on it, unless it's been a reused bolt. However, I've seen a pic of where the bolt has broken off due to the pulley being so loose.

 

[toolie]

The loctite 51048 is the product #LB 8012. If the honda moly is still available it should be good.

 

[PMK]

Enjoy. Pretty much a visual storyboard from the previous red witness marks, the oem applied grease, to the final safety wiring.

 

[PMK]

The loctite 51048 is the product #LB 8012. If the honda moly is still available it should be good.

Pretty certain when I was researching various products, Honda M77 is Molykote M77. Not sure it is the best for the application, but certainly better than many choices.

 

[Woodaddict]

If the honda moly is still available it should be good.

I use Honda Moly M77 paste. Its still available.

 

[007james]

Thanks for the great photos, PMK! I am wondering if there is a Bearing inside the Casing we don’t see that could also be damaged that does not get inspected or changed when the casings are not split and the shaft not changed. Also, I am wondering just how damaged the splines on the stainless steel shaft can get, and still be filed to accept a new Sprocket and
installed using your method? ( your opinion? ). I like your idea of Safety wiring the Bolt. In my young days as a 17 year old USAF Airman, I was trained to be an Aircraft Mechanic, on Reciprocating Engine Aircraft. I trained 10 months as a Mechanic at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, Texas in 1959. EVERY single Bolt and Nut on every Aircraft engine had to be Safety wired. We Mechanics all had our rolls of S.S. Safety Wire. I ended up at Westover AFB in Mass. working on KC-97 Refueling Aircraft, and got to despise working on those huge engines, Safety wiring literally thousands of bolts and nuts, and especially hated changing the hot oils in those huge engines! That’s why I don’t do my own Spyder mechanics. That’s why COMPETENT Dealer Techs are employed,.....when we can find any. Have you ever contacted BRP to offer your Methodology of how to properly install Sprockets? Also, I am wondering how many hours of Labor, start to finish, including Diagnosis, is required using your Technique? Thanks again for the impressive Tutoral. I will use this method after my Warrantee expires and If I ever need to keep replacing my Failed Sprocket every 10-20 thousand miles. I was thinking of just Tack Welding the darn Sprocket to the Drive Shaft so it could not come off, but Safety Wiring the Bolt is a much more reasonable way to go.

Enjoy. Pretty much a visual storyboard from the previous red witness marks, the oem applied grease, to the final safety wiring.

 

[aka1004]

Do you put moly paste on shaft of bolt, teeth of spline and sprocket?
Thank you.

Also, can I use moly paste on rear axle? I’m about do rear tire.

 

[PMK]

Thanks for the great photos, PMK! I am wondering if there is a Bearing inside the Casing we don’t see that could also be damaged that does not get inspected or changed when the casings are not split and the shaft not changed. Also, I am wondering just how damaged the splines on the stainless steel shaft can get, and still be filed to accept a new Sprocket and
installed using your method? ( your opinion? ). I like your idea of Safety wiring the Bolt. In my young days as a 17 year old USAF Airman, I was trained to be an Aircraft Mechanic, on Reciprocating Engine Aircraft. I trained 10 months as a Mechanic at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, Texas in 1959. EVERY single Bolt and Nut on every Aircraft engine had to be Safety wired. We Mechanics all had our rolls of S.S. Safety Wire. I ended up at Westover AFB in Mass. working on KC-97 Refueling Aircraft, and got to despise working on those huge engines, Safety wiring literally thousands of bolts and nuts, and especially hated changing the hot oils in those huge engines! That’s why I don’t do my own Spyder mechanics. That’s why COMPETENT Dealer Techs are employed,.....when we can find any. Have you ever contacted BRP to offer your Methodology of how to properly install Sprockets? Also, I am wondering how many hours of Labor, start to finish, including Diagnosis, is required using your Technique? Thanks again for the impressive Tutoral. I will use this method after my Warrantee expires and If I ever need to keep replacing my Failed Sprocket every 10-20 thousand miles. I was thinking of just Tack Welding the darn Sprocket to the Drive Shaft so it could not come off, but Safety Wiring the Bolt is a much more reasonable way to go.

The gearbox shaft is heat treated steel, not stainless steel. No plans to work with French Canadians even if they called, would still turn them down as in my experience often they are impossible to deal with on issues like this.

As for the gearbox output shaft bearing, yes it does exist, but requires engine removal and splitting the cases to gain access for inspecting or replacement.

In kindness, I offer not to over think this. The entire fitment of the pulley is very simple. Regarding your idea of waiting until warranty expires, entirely your choice, however, if you experience a worn pulley, at a later time, possibly outside of warranty, you could suffer serious expense of needing a gearbox output shaft. Myself, I would accomplish this even within the warranty period and at certain intervals to prevent failures. You asked how long it took. Start to finish, including getting out and picking up the tools, bodypanel removal and reinstallation was no more than 2 hours and this included replacing the air filter.

As for your suffering with those aircraft, looking back, consider the knowledge and experienced you gained. Myself too, I have loc wired enough fasteners to understand exactly what you are talking about.

 

[PMK]

Do you put moly paste on shaft of bolt, teeth of spline and sprocket?
Thank you.

Also, can I use moly paste on rear axle? I’m about do rear tire.

I applied lubricant to the inner faying surface of the pulley, gearbox splines, pulley splines, then slid the pulley onto the shaft, followed by applying lubricant to the outer faying surface of the pulley and washer face. No lubricant was applied to the threads or bolt shank, I applied Mastinox corrosion prevention compound to the bolt shank.

You could use moly lube on the rear axle. However you will make a huge mess doing so. Also consider, the axle torque spec is for clean dry threads. If moly is applied or even grease is applied, and contaminates the threads, torquing to spec will substantially overtorque the axle, crushing the swingarm, axle adjusters, and possibly bearing spacers.

 

[Freddy]

PMK thanks for all that good info.

I view of this, it would seem prudent though for the benefit of all, for you to amend your advice in post 35 to lubricate the bolt, in light of the conflicting procedure you have described above. :cheers: