F3 Front Sprocket Inspection

[ofdave]

Have been interested in this since the beginning. When I found that fretting resulted in the iron oxide production I posted the Wikipedia link to it in an earlier post thinking it would spark thinking on the subject which it has.

Our Spyders are not the only machines with belt drive pulleys on an output shaft. Nearly all motorcycle manufacturers have a model with belt drive from BMW to Honda to Harley to Yamaha and more.
I am curious if those others have the same issue? We can't be alone in this, can we?

I understand the concern over bolt tightness. It seems to me the bolt holds the pulley on the shaft to prevent lateral movement while the splines prevent or minimize rotational movement. From what I've read, I think the rotational movement of the pulley on the shaft is the main cause of the problem although I can see where any lateral movement of the pulley on the shaft would exacerbate the problem but not be the actual cause.

I agree with Freddy, putting the bike into gear is not a cause of the problem, it is the minute movement of the pulley on the splines that gives us the problem.

I wonder if belt vibration could be a contributing factor to this movement of the pulley? Are the pulley failures equal among bikes with and without belt tensioners? Food for thought

It is interesting to hear what solutions have been discussed-lube on the shaft to reduce friction in the minute movement of the pulley on the shaft and RTV to keep out moisture and maybe a cushioning effect. I hope there will be future posts on the success of each method.

The one issue that has not been talked about is the material the pulley is made from. Would a different harder alloy reduce the fretting? A problem I see in making the pulley too hard would be transferring wear to the output shaft. That would not be good as shaft replacement would be much more expensive than replacing the pulley.
A comment was made above that someone installed a new pulley and was told by his dealer that although it had the same part number it was different. Could it be that BRP changed the make-up of the pulley to harder material to reduce the problem? Would be interesting to know the answer.
Anyway, the saga continues.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Have been interested in this since the beginning. When I found that fretting resulted in the iron oxide production I posted the Wikipedia link to it in an earlier post thinking it would spark thinking on the subject which it has.

Our Spyders are not the only machines with belt drive pulleys on an output shaft. Nearly all motorcycle manufacturers have a model with belt drive from BMW to Honda to Harley to Yamaha and more.
I am curious if those others have the same issue? We can't be alone in this, can we?

I understand the concern over bolt tightness. It seems to me the bolt holds the pulley on the shaft to prevent lateral movement while the splines prevent or minimize rotational movement. From what I've read, I think the rotational movement of the pulley on the shaft is the main cause of the problem although I can see where any lateral movement of the pulley on the shaft would exacerbate the problem but not be the actual cause.

I agree with Freddy, putting the bike into gear is not a cause of the problem, it is the minute movement of the pulley on the splines that gives us the problem.

I wonder if belt vibration could be a contributing factor to this movement of the pulley? Are the pulley failures equal among bikes with and without belt tensioners? Food for thought

It is interesting to hear what solutions have been discussed-lube on the shaft to reduce friction in the minute movement of the pulley on the shaft and RTV to keep out moisture and maybe a cushioning effect. I hope there will be future posts on the success of each method.

The one issue that has not been talked about is the material the pulley is made from. Would a different harder alloy reduce the fretting? A problem I see in making the pulley too hard would be transferring wear to the output shaft. That would not be good as shaft replacement would be much more expensive than replacing the pulley.
A comment was made above that someone installed a new pulley and was told by his dealer that although it had the same part number it was different. Could it be that BRP changed the make-up of the pulley to harder material to reduce the problem? Would be interesting to know the answer.
Anyway, the saga continues.

I have had the original Vibration Damper on my F3 since this time last year at 3,000 miles. I now have close to 17,000 miles and plan on removing the front pulley and using the RTV on it. Interested to see what I will find when I remove it. Statistically, I don't think the dampers have been out there long enough to really make a difference, but if what you are saying about engine vibration causing this is correct, a Vibration Damper would have to help some. I have the VD on both the F3 and RT and where it greatly improved the RT, it really improved the F3 substantially. Will be doing a video when I get the byke in to do this and I'll post it in here. Probably the weekend. One thing I know for sure; BRP will not make the pulley splines harder due to the possibility of damage to the shaft they would be liable for.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Today I removed for inspection, also to install the newest style bolt the front drive pulley from our 2014 RTS. Ours is an early machine, purchased in Jan of 2014.

I have posted the details and photos on Finless Bobs FB group. I no longer post here at Spyderlovers, this is a rare case to help others.

Upon disassembly, this machine, which has never been apart prior to today had the splines coated from the factory in what appears to be white lithium grease.

The pulley on this machine is fairly hard. I attempted to mark the pulley and shaft to index the location for reassembly. I was unable to scratch or scribe the pulley. I was able to barely put a file mark onto the surface. I resorted to other means of marking.

Upon inspection, there was no wear to the pulley splines or gearbox shaft.

There was no indication of fretting, red oxide dust or similar. The bolt had not loosened from my previously applied witness mark. The bolt had never been removed until today, and the informal torque verification accomplished the day the witness mark was applied showed it had not loosened.

All the best, however or whatever method you proceed with.

What was the mileage on the machine.........if you don't mind?

 

[JKMSPYDER]

LATEST UPDATE

I finally had my sprocket replaced the correct way yesterday by a dealer in Greenville, SC. My previous dealer had put the new sprocket on the wrong way and also did not use the Loctite 660. The dealer in Greenville had to heat the sprocket to 400 degrees to get the adhesive to loosen. Then he put on a new sprocket and bolt and used the Loctite 660. All this was done under warranty. My thanks to Ethan the service manager at Greenville Power Sports for getting this corrected for me. Today I mailed a letter to the previous dealer with photos to explain my displeasure with their work.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

I finally had my sprocket replaced the correct way yesterday by a dealer in Greenville, SC. My previous dealer had put the new sprocket on the wrong way and also did not use the Loctite 660. The dealer in Greenville had to heat the sprocket to 400 degrees to get the adhesive to loosen. Then he put on a new sprocket and bolt and used the Loctite 660. All this was done under warranty. My thanks to Ethan the service manager at Greenville Power Sports for getting this corrected for me. Today I mailed a letter to the previous dealer with photos to explain my displeasure with their work.

I would make sure you send the first dealers' name to BRP (if you haven't done so already)

 

[SpyderCruiser]

I have been reading this thread with much interest. If I ever find red dust on my pulley I will use this product on the splines. http://www.tefgel.com/contain.php?param=tefgel_infor

I have been using this product on my boat outdrive and other components for years. It is the only thing I have seen combat the electrolysis that occurs between stainless and aluminum in contact with salt water. This stuff is very gooey and stays were you put it.

I believe with the PTFE to lube the splines and the gooeyness to prevent water from getting between the splines it would combat both issues brought up in this thread. What do you think?

 

[Roadster Renovations]

I have been reading this thread with much interest. If I ever find red dust on my pulley I will use this product on the splines. http://www.tefgel.com/contain.php?param=tefgel_infor

I have been using this product on my boat outdrive and other components for years. It is the only thing I have seen combat the electrolysis that occurs between stainless and aluminum in contact with salt water. This stuff is very gooey and stays were you put it.

I believe with the PTFE to lube the splines and the gooeyness to prevent water from getting between the splines it would combat both issues brought up in this thread. What do you think?

I think that might be a very good choice. Have used PTFE and that stuff works very well. Well worth giving it a try. One thing I am confident of is that all of our knowledge put together here will eventually solve this problem. Thanks for the input.

 

[EETHER54]

I think that might be a very good choice. Have used PTFE and that stuff works very well. Well worth giving it a try. One thing I am confident of is that all of our knowledge put together here will eventually solve this problem. Thanks for the input.

I'd strongly recommend anyone considering this job to follow the manufacturer's recommendation of using loctite 660 on the splines. The sprocket splines come from the factory with Klueber paste which has proven ineffective *when coupled with a potentially under torqued fastener. Using some other type of lubricating medium with the addition of rtv will likely cause other issues. The bolt torque specs are for a dry bolt and putting rtv there WILL change the characteristics of bolt tension/torque relationship. There is no correlation that I have seen between water intrusion prior to failure, only after failure has begun and a clearance has opened up will water have any way in, short of dropping the spyder in a lake for an extended period of time.

FWIW the spyder that had the sprocket installed incorrectly was installed with what appeared to be sleeve retaining loctite (green). This type breaks down at a higher temp than 660 and we still didn't have any issues. Short, focused application of heat around the hub of the socket with a cutting torch broke the bond and transferred almost no heat to the shaft. The seal was not damaged in any way. The bolt was not even close to being torqued properly but the loctite (even the incorrect variety) held the sprocket quite effectively.

 

[Freddy]

hyea: Glad to see this problem has gone away - for a coupla week anywho.

 

[den1953]

I'm not a Spyder owner yet but most motorcycles have a drive cushion in the rear hub of the back wheel which takes up some of the shock of shifting/downshifting, accelerating etc. I would think BRP would have such a drive dampener in the Spyder rear wheel hub. The transmission output shaft shouldn't have to be beaten by the sudden torque loads you're mentioning.

 

[jcthorne]

I'm not a Spyder owner yet but most motorcycles have a drive cushion in the rear hub of the back wheel which takes up some of the shock of shifting/downshifting, accelerating etc. I would think BRP would have such a drive dampener in the Spyder rear wheel hub. The transmission output shaft shouldn't have to be beaten by the sudden torque loads you're mentioning.

Spyder rear wheel DOES have a cush drive in the hub.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

I pulled my front sprocket cover off Friday and could find no red rust at all on the Daytona. 17,100 miles. I am going to wait on taking it apart until it starts showing wear, I have found that using a flashlight and a telescoping mirror, you can maneuver it to quickly inspect the front of the sprocket. Without any wear, the RTV would not fill in well enough.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

 

[Freddy]

:agree: A couple of folks have hit it with a torque wrench (figuratively speaking) to see if the bolt tightens. Do you think you might do that, out of curiosity? On the early GS/RS issue the SB said to back it off a little before retorqueing. I read that some did not do that but the bolt come up some anyway. As I say, just curious.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

:agree: A couple of folks have hit it with a torque wrench (figuratively speaking) to see if the bolt tightens. Do you think you might do that, out of curiosity? On the early GS/RS issue the SB said to back it off a little before retorqueing. I read that some did not do that but the bolt come up some anyway. As I say, just curious.

Thought about that. Not going to disturb it. Since mine is a '17 I'm hoping that it has the harder compound. I can tell you this; with my weight and the way I have rode it I am very surprised to not see any wear. I will monitor it and plan on doing something if the red rust does ever show.

Someone said something about the possibility that several venders for BRP may be making the pulleys. It could be possible that a batch was not tempered correctly to obtain the correct hardness. Since this has been a hit or miss situation on these, that could explain it.

Since this thread has slowed down, I am hoping that BRP has figured out what the problem was and corrected it. No telling how many defective front pulleys are out there waiting to grenade, but time will tell.

 

[gnorthern]

Two questions where I am confused - Shifting and trailers

I still have two questions.
1. Everybody seems to agree that the clunking when shifting is bad. As I new driver I have heard it but unclear as to what causes it. Can somebody tell me how to avoid clunking?
2. Will towing a trailer make this problem worse? Eventually I want to get a pop up trailer (no lectures about how after market trailers voids the warranty), and want to know if that is a bad idea with a F3-T.

Thanks.

 

[ofdave]

I still have two questions.
1. Everybody seems to agree that the clunking when shifting is bad. As I new driver I have heard it but unclear as to what causes it. Can somebody tell me how to avoid clunking?
2. Will towing a trailer make this problem worse? Eventually I want to get a pop up trailer (no lectures about how after market trailers voids the warranty), and want to know if that is a bad idea with a F3-T.

Thanks.

you might get more worthwhile answers if you started a new thread on this topic
many here with knowledge on the subject might not read this thread

 

[Roadster Renovations]

I still have two questions.
1. Everybody seems to agree that the clunking when shifting is bad. As I new driver I have heard it but unclear as to what causes it. Can somebody tell me how to avoid clunking?
2. Will towing a trailer make this problem worse? Eventually I want to get a pop up trailer (no lectures about how after market trailers voids the warranty), and want to know if that is a bad idea with a F3-T.

Thanks.

There is really no way around "the clunk". It has to with the pressures in the transmission. When first starting our RT that has 48k on it, it takes a minute or two to build it's normal pressure in the transmission, and the shifting is softer until that happens.
What I have been doing is apply the brake, release the parking brake, then ease up on the peddle so that the stop light switch is one, but no braking is present. This helps a little because the byke is not in a fixed position. It will actually jump slightly when going into gear.
I guess the easiest way to think of it is hitting a chunk of steel hanging from a rope instead of setting it on the ground and then hitting it. My non-digreed engineering mind tells me this would have to help in reducing the shock.

 

[Freddy]

My non-digreed engineering mind tells me this would have to help in reducing the shock.

Engineers would call it reducing the intertial force of resistance. But I don't think it would make any difference, myself but hey, folks have gotta try something coz BRP don't seem to be.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Engineers would call it reducing the intertial force of resistance. But I don't think it would make any difference, myself but hey, folks have gotta try something coz BRP don't seem to be.

Yep, that sounds right.................on both counts.

 

[BRPcare]

I still have two questions.
1. Everybody seems to agree that the clunking when shifting is bad. As I new driver I have heard it but unclear as to what causes it. Can somebody tell me how to avoid clunking?
2. Will towing a trailer make this problem worse? Eventually I want to get a pop up trailer (no lectures about how after market trailers voids the warranty), and want to know if that is a bad idea with a F3-T.

Thanks.

Hi gnorthern, If you have any questions regarding your Spyder, or think that anything might be wrong with it, it's best to visit your dealer. Also, if you have any questions, you can always email us at [email protected] or call us at 888-272-9222. Drive safely. Lise at BRP Care