F3 Front Sprocket Inspection

[GaryTheBadger]

Thank you, Roadster Renovations.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Still haven't forgot the video. Automotive has been extremely busy. Will do sometime next week. One in the shop and 2 waiting outside....all major work.

 

[JKMSPYDER]

Loctite 660

​My dealer seems to be having a delay in acquiring Loctite 660 to go with replacing my shaft and bolt. I have shopped four automotive stores and can't find it either. But all of these stores carry a lot of Permatex products. So I got the idea of Googling a Loctite 660 equivalent. It immediately came up with Permatex Sleeve Retainer # 64040. Has anyone used this product and will it accomplish the same result as Loctite 660? In reading the product information for the Permatex it looks like it will.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

​My dealer seems to be having a delay in acquiring Loctite 660 to go with replacing my shaft and bolt. I have shopped four automotive stores and can't find it either. But all of these stores carry a lot of Permatex products. So I got the idea of Googling a Loctite 660 equivalent. It immediately came up with Permatex Sleeve Retainer # 64040. Has anyone used this product and will it accomplish the same result as Loctite 660? In reading the product information for the Permatex it looks like it will.

5-7 day shipping straight to your dealer if that helps.
https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-Quic...F8&qid=1510957138&sr=8-3&keywords=loctite+660

 

[Roadster Renovations]

This one is by Sunday;
https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-442-...F8&qid=1510957138&sr=8-5&keywords=loctite+660

 

[JKMSPYDER]

PERMATEX

My question was if the Permatex product that I mentioned would work?:dontknow:

 

[Roadster Renovations]

My question was if the Permatex product that I mentioned would work?:dontknow:

:dontknow::dontknow::dontknow: No idea either....anybody???

 

[Freddy]

I wouldn't do anything more. Tightening the bolt any will break the loctite seal and render the thread locker useless. <snip

BRP does not agree, or they didn't 6 years ago when these failures first showed up.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...ft-Pulley&highlight=sprocket+service+bulletin

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?18252-Front-Sprocket-BRP-Bulletin


As I said earlier, I torqued mine to 115 ftlb. The SB said to mark the head of the bolt with a black X to show it had been loosened and retorqued. I wonder to Doc still has that SB somewhere?

 

[Roadster Renovations]

BRP does not agree, or they didn't 6 years ago when these failures first showed up.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...ft-Pulley&highlight=sprocket+service+bulletin

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?18252-Front-Sprocket-BRP-Bulletin


As I said earlier, I torqued mine to 115 ftlb. The SB said to mark the head of the bolt with a black X to show it had been loosened and retorqued. I wonder to Doc still has that SB somewhere?

No SB on it. Sorry. I'm just going by taking critical bolts loose on cages. Anytime the loctite is broken loose, it has to be re-applied.

 

[jcthorne]

Saw my first RT with the problem in my shop on Sat. Bike had 58,000 miles and the pulley covered in the red iron oxide. Recommended the owner have the dealer replace the pulley. (its under warranty).

 

[zuni]

Saw my first RT with the problem in my shop on Sat. Bike had 58,000 miles and the pulley covered in the red iron oxide. Recommended the owner have the dealer replace the pulley. (its under warranty).

58K interval I could live with. Every 8K not so much. Going well since the last change but only 2.5K so far.

CJ JAX

 

[Road-Kill]

Sincerest apologies as I admit I was wrong.

Just arrived home from my dealer after having the front sprocket replaced. No cost to me other then the time spent traveling the 40 miles in the cold to get there. He told me the new sprocket is an upgrade from BRP but doesn't know how as they "look" the same. He also told me my original sprocket was not even close to failure even though it was covered in red rust. Regardless, I'm off to complete my first 20,000 miles on this bike this year. This thread did (finally) cause me to check my bike for that evil red rust so my hat off to those who argued with me on what I considered a non-issue at the time.

P.S. Don't think for a second I will not call BS in the future, I was wrong this time.....:banghead:

 

[OK-DZ9R]

Red Dust

Kevin Cameron's Top Dead Center column in this month's Cycle World Magazine speaks directly to the cause and source of the dreaded Red Dust:

https://www.cycleworld.com/long-and-short-motorcycle-fasteners

"(The)loss of metal from the slight relative movements between fastener and part caused by vibration. A good example of this is the loosening of the large, thin nuts often used to retain engine output sprockets on their shaft splines or of the several bolts used to retain rear wheel sprockets.Despite the usual presence of a torsional shock absorber, built into the clutch basket, the drive from engine to rear wheel is not smooth. All the tiny motions that result cause surface scrubbing, each such movement making a zillion micro-welds that are broken by the next movement. In steel-to-steel contacts of this kind you may find a reddish discoloration or even red powder—the iron oxide that results from “frettage,” the slight vibratory weld-and-break action between surfaces."

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Kevin Cameron's Top Dead Center column in this month's Cycle World Magazine speaks directly to the cause and source of the dreaded Red Dust:

https://www.cycleworld.com/long-and-short-motorcycle-fasteners

"(The)loss of metal from the slight relative movements between fastener and part caused by vibration. A good example of this is the loosening of the large, thin nuts often used to retain engine output sprockets on their shaft splines or of the several bolts used to retain rear wheel sprockets.Despite the usual presence of a torsional shock absorber, built into the clutch basket, the drive from engine to rear wheel is not smooth. All the tiny motions that result cause surface scrubbing, each such movement making a zillion micro-welds that are broken by the next movement. In steel-to-steel contacts of this kind you may find a reddish discoloration or even red powder—the iron oxide that results from “frettage,” the slight vibratory weld-and-break action between surfaces."

Good article. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Freddy]

Someone send it to BRP Care please. NO, wait - they don't care. :roflblack:

 

[Peteoz]

This thread did (finally) cause me to check my bike for that evil red rust so my hat off to those who argued with me on what I considered a non-issue at the time.
P.S. Don't think for a second I will not call BS in the future, I was wrong this time.....:banghead:

It takes a lot of guts to admit you were wrong on a public forum, Road-Kill:firstplace:......and you weren’t really THAT wrong with what you were saying....... and I don’t think ANYONE would expect you not to call BS when you see (read it):thumbup:

Pete

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Fretting over fretting

Now that we have determined fretting is the cause, I would like to hear thoughts about the clunk of going into gear and whether that may be the long term cause of this. Going into gear at the point of the splines would be equivalent to a pretty good tap with a hammer. I have been playing around with trying to lessen that impact by taking the parking brake off and just barely pressing on the brake pedal just enough to turn on the brake light but not apply the brake. It will then allow me to shift. When that happens, the byke will jump 1-2". I'm thinking that would lessen the impact from a frozen (parking brake on) position. Also, it seems that the shift from either R to 1 or 1 to R is usually very much softer. So, if the fretting is occurring from mostly going into first, would it not make sense to go into reverse first to lessen the fretting from going into first?

 

[Freddy]

My take on the above explanation of fretting is that it's not so much the clunk you describe RR, but the power pulses from the engine itself causing the damage due to 'inadequate clamping force' of the pulley retaining bolt as BRP advised 6-8 years ago. As I've mentioned earlier in this most interesting, if not distressing topic, I torqued the bolt on my 990 higher than BPR's revised spec after determining what a new bolt of that type could be torqued to, then added a bit more due to the factory-fitted thread locker. We've already had a few reports of the bolt tightening up when folks have retorqued it. In the service bulleting I referred to earlier (which seems to be unavailable to view these days) BRP instructions were to loosen the bolt then retorque it.

I don't have a 1330 bolt at hand but maybe someone can measure the bolt diameter and thread pitch and tell us what markings are on its head.


...........and another thing. Why did BRP fit a 'flywheel' to the 990 drive pulley after the spline failures were detected? Was it to behave as something like a vibration damper? I note that the 1330 does not have this. Very curious.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

My take on the above explanation of fretting is that it's not so much the clunk you describe RR, but the power pulses from the engine itself causing the damage due to 'inadequate clamping force' of the pulley retaining bolt as BRP advised 6-8 years ago. As I've mentioned earlier in this most interesting, if not distressing topic, I torqued the bolt on my 990 higher than BPR's revised spec after determining what a new bolt of that type could be torqued to, then added a bit more due to the factory-fitted thread locker. We've already had a few reports of the bolt tightening up when folks have retorqued it. In the service bulleting I referred to earlier (which seems to be unavailable to view these days) BRP instructions were to loosen the bolt then retorque it.

I don't have a 1330 bolt at hand but maybe someone can measure the bolt diameter and thread pitch and tell us what markings are on its head.


...........and another thing. Why did BRP fit a 'flywheel' to the 990 drive pulley after the spline failures were detected? Was it to behave as something like a vibration damper? I note that the 1330 does not have this. Very curious.

All good points, Freddy! I also wondered about the "Output Shaft Vibration Damper" myself.

i have been reading up on this page and it looks like corrosion and fretting go hand in hand in some cases. Oxygen presence converts the sheared material "chewing up" the remaining surface. i am still hanging with the RTV seal and spline covering.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...DXAhUQUd8KHcbUAo0Q1QIIsQEoAA&biw=1600&bih=769

 

[Freddy]

Fretting

:agree: There is certainly a broad body of knowledge and experience on the subject. I have personal experience of it with diesel engine main & big-end bearing caps and have seen catastrophic engine failures where owners/amateurs have not recognised it and reassembled engines with new bearings only to have bearing/shaft seizure not too far down the road. But that's Off Topic and another sad story.