F3 Front Sprocket Inspection

[TexasZ]

Sarge, that pic of yours in #143 shows red dust yet the pulley is tight on the shaft you say. This was found also to be the case on some 990 failures. The pulley was worn but the wear misaligned the splines for easy removal - just a point of interest or confusion as the case may be. That red dust is bleeding from behind the large washer.

I was wondering about how the red dust was getting out to collect on the front side if the bolt was still tight as it should be.
Like you mentioned before about the BRP loctite on the bolts keeping the bolts from torquing down correctly, I noticed EETHER54 coming to the same conclusion...

The red rust isn't the cause of the issue, it's just a byproduct of the spines failing. There is no real sort of coating on the sprocket splines, just bare on bare metal. Our first F3 that had complete spline failure was a manual shift, so I'm not sure how strong the correlation between the SE6 clunk and the issue is. Our shop hasn't seen this specific type of failure on the 1330 RTs at this point.

IMHO I believe there is less bearing surface between the backside of the sprocket and the shaft as compared to the 990 engine. This coupled with improper torque of the bolt likely exacerbated by BRP's somewhat irritating habit of preloading bolts with loctite is what is causing the issue. What I have observed would seem to indicate the design relies heavily on arresting any movement with solely the tension of the bolt. If it isn't torqued properly it eventually allows movement of the splines and it's all downhill from there.

The loctite 660 is designed to arrest any potential for movement, frankly making the clamping force of the bolt much less important. I understand that heat will have to be used to remove the sprocket eventually, but that really isn't something that you should have to replace that often. Replacing the seal behind it would not be that difficult as infrequently as this operation would need to be undertaken. Fwiw, certain years of ZX6s came from the factory with a obscenely tight front sprocket nut. The advice from the kawasaki tech department was to heat the nut red hot and hit it with an impact gun. The seal obviously needed to be replaced but there was never another issue...

While there may be more than one way to fix the issue, I would recommend anyone still under warranty to go the loctite route, or rather, make sure that your dealership does so for you.

After hearing that from both of you, I'm wondering whether we might be better off to remove the BRP loctite from the new bolt and put some fresh Loctite on and immediately install and torque the bolt down before the loctite has a chance to harden up and interfere with the torque specs.
Torque specs for the 1330 call for 92 pounds + or -4. I would definitely go for the 92+4.

 

[Freddy]

Eether54, your comment on the 990 pulley being larger on the inner face than the 1330 is interesting. I wonder if anyone can compare? I have a spare for my 990 so will measure and post when home later.

37mm face that mates to the drive shaft flange.

 

[gerald37]

I have read everyone of these posts on this problem. I am pretty new to the Spyder. I purchased a 2015 Roadster RT in July of this year. I have been riding motorcycles for over 60 years and have been a mechanic and tool and die maker for about 30 years and this problem is really confusing. Of course I have an Rt which has not had as much problem. This morning I pulled the plastic off the left side and checked mind. It was fine and the torque was OK. The part number on mind was 705502331 manufacture 01/2015. I have really got to love this machine. I have had it for about 4 mouths and put 6,000 miles on it. I sure am hopes to stay with a Spyder unless they have a lot of problems. I have completely went over mind and have found no problems.

Jerry

 

[Sarge707]

Sarge, that is a good way to look at it. Guess you decided to not try/didn't have a pulley puller to remove it for inspection?

As far as I can tell my sprocket is still in good shape per this picture , the bolt was Very tight and with 10,000 miles I'm Not going to take something apart that still looks OK?
I have the New Sprocket and will buy another Bolt and check again Middle of next summer. In the mean time I'm riding All winter Unless it gets too Salty.
I could Never Heat Treat that thing- Change a rear tire No problem- BUT when mine gets bad enough the dealer can deal with it.

 

[always young]

Continuing saga

Here's a question for anyone that has removed their bolt. Does the pulley stick out beyond the spline shaft. In other words, is the shaft below flush with the pulley? If they are flush to each other or the shaft protrudes past the pulley, no amount of torque on the bolt will tighten things up. There needs to be a gap between the two so the bolt can tighten up the difference and force the pulley tighter onto the shaft. There must be some kind of shoulder on the back side as well for everything to clamp up tight. I can't quite tell in the picture in the last post if they are flush or not. Food for thought to add to the conundrum. I'm still a newbie with about 1100 miles so far but wanted to share my thoughts.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Here's a question for anyone that has removed their bolt. Does the pulley stick out beyond the spline shaft. In other words, is the shaft below flush with the pulley? If they are flush to each other or the shaft protrudes past the pulley, no amount of torque on the bolt will tighten things up. There needs to be a gap between the two so the bolt can tighten up the difference and force the pulley tighter onto the shaft. There must be some kind of shoulder on the back side as well for everything to clamp up tight. I can't quite tell in the picture in the last post if they are flush or not. Food for thought to add to the conundrum. I'm still a newbie with about 1100 miles so far but wanted to share my thoughts.

I was trying to look at Sarges' picture to see that very thing and it "looks" like the pulley flange slightly extends past the shaft. If that is the case, then the bolt would push and hold the unit onto the shaft. You are right though, that would make it stronger that way. In automotive, we call that a "jam fit".

 

[Steamer]

Bolt Loctite

When replacing the bolt on the front sprocket, are you using blue loctite?
Thanks

 

[Sarge707]

When replacing the bolt on the front sprocket, are you using blue loctite?
Thanks

I just Used the 2017 One piece Bolt that has Loctite already on it from the factory.
The Sprocket does seem to stick out just a little ( I couldn't tell how much) from the shaft and when the bolt is tightened to the proper torque it will go No More!
I hope anyone who buys a bolt to check their sprocket will post pictures So We All can Learn More?

 

[Roadster Renovations]

I just Used the 2017 One piece Bolt that has Loctite already on it from the factory.
The Sprocket does seem to stick out just a little ( I couldn't tell how much) from the shaft and when the bolt is tightened to the proper torque it will go No More!
I hope anyone who buys a bolt to check their sprocket will post pictures So We All can Learn More?

I am planning on doing a video as soon as I get the shop free. In the middle of a timing belt/water pump on a Honda. I plan on showing how to use an inexpensive puller (harbour freight) to get the pulley off for inspection. Depending on what I find I will either put a new one on or seal up the old, mark the mileage on it that it was done. The witeout pens are great for making notations on parts, (direction, mileage, etc.). I have almost 17,000 miles on mine. No red dust so far. What I would like to do is prove at sealing even a used one will allow it to never fail.

 

[Freddy]

When replacing the bolt on the front sprocket, are you using blue loctite?
Thanks

It's a longish thread but if folks took the time to read it we wouldn't have such a question.

Rant over in short order.

 

[ofdave]

frettage

what we are seeing is not unique to the Spyder although it occurs more than would be expected.
Fretting is common on many motorcycle sprockets and common in ball bearings.
The movement of the sprocket on the shaft is the cause. A more precise fit of sprocket to shaft would likely lessen the occurrence but may require pressing the sprocket to the shaft as well as bolting it. Probably not a solution that would work for all. Welding the sprocket to the shaft would certainly eliminate the problem but would require major labor and expense to change a sprocket-not going to happen.

The iron oxide dust produced does not require water to occur.

The use of moly on the shaft will aid in reducing the problem as will the use of RTV. This will cushion/lubricate the movement between the two surfaces.
It seems proper bolt tightness is a key element in reducing the occurrence of fretting (at least with regard to our situation). This may be the root of the problem and where attention should be directed. Reuse of an old bolt should not be done. It has stretched and lost holding strength and must be replaced.

It may be that BRP should change the alloy used in the sprocket to one harder to lessen the problem.

Here is a good read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fretting

 

[TexasZ]

When replacing the bolt on the front sprocket, are you using blue loctite?
Thanks

Although Freddy is correct about reading the thread, the answer is a new bolt is required each time the bolt is removed, and the new bolt from BRP will already have the loctite on it.

 

[Peteoz]

It's a longish thread but if folks took the time to read it we wouldn't have such a question.

Rant over in short order.

That’s a good call for shorter threads, Freddy, and I agree with you completely on that:thumbup:, but this one is sooooooo long, with soooooo many conflicting points, that it is fairly impractical to do that in this case.

TexasZ has answered the question in about as many words as you have used above, while reinforcing to all new thread readers that it is necessary to use a new bolt. Win-Win

Pete

 

[BRPcare]

Proper F3 Front Sprocket Side

Hi all,

We apologies for providing with an inaccurate information. Based on other members input, we've taken the extra to reach our Spyder Product Specialist to take a second look into your situation.

The answer we should have shared is the following: the offset, meaning the deeper side, is actually on the engine side rather than outside. Our mistake was made when we looked at 2D technical drawing but this time we used 3D version.

Please find the 3D visual drawing so you will be able to see how the proper installation.

If you have any concerns, we recommend going to an authorized BRP dealer.

​

Hope this helps!

BRPcare

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Hi all,

We apologies for providing with an inaccurate information. Based on other members input, we've taken the extra to reach our Spyder Product Specialist to take a second look into your situation.

The answer we should have shared is the following: the offset, meaning the deeper side, is actually on the engine side rather than outside. Our mistake was made when we looked at 2D technical drawing but this time we used 3D version.

Please find the 3D visual drawing so you will be able to see how the proper installation.

If you have any concerns, we recommend going to an authorized BRP dealer.

View attachment 155590

​

Hope this helps!

BRPcare

That means numbers out and X's to the inside! Thank You for clarifying, BRP!

 

[Steamer]

Bolt

It's a longish thread but if folks took the time to read it we wouldn't have such a question.

Rant over in short order.

There was some discussion about removing the factory loctite on a NEW bolt so that the torque measurement would be accurate. Ergo my question and I should have been more specific. I actually read the threads twice and learned tons. The answers to my questions have been really helpful, with one exception.

 

[Freddy]

There was some discussion about removing the factory loctite on a NEW bolt so that the torque measurement would be accurate. Ergo my question and I should have been more specific. I actually read the threads twice and learned tons. The answers to my questions have been really helpful, with one exception.

Probably another 2 posts were unhelpful as well steamer - the 2 that were posted quoting BRP Care in which they demonstrated just how much they don't Care or know what they're about regarding some of the things they make, sell and warrant.

Unbelievable!!! :yikes:

 

[Capt. Bob]

2015 F3S Pulley is Fine with 10K Miles

Well, this has been a very interesting thread and I decided to go out this morning and pull the front pulley cover on my 2015 F3S SM6 to see if I had the dreaded "rust". What I found on my 10,000 mile trike was a very clean non-rusty front drive pulley with the numbers and manufacturing date facing outward. Hooray!

 

[GaryTheBadger]

This is my sprocket at 10k miles on a 2015 F3 SE6. To me, it looks like 10k miles of dust, not rust. If I am right, then I don't need to take any action at this time, correct?
Or, change the bolt anyway?

 

[Roadster Renovations]

This is my sprocket at 10k miles on a 2015 F3 SE6. To me, it looks like 10k miles of dust, not rust. If I am right, then I don't need to take any action at this time, correct?
Or, change the bolt anyway?

I wouldn't do anything more. Tightening the bolt any will break the loctite seal and render the thread locker useless. Without the red rust present, you should be good to go IMHO.