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F3 Front Sprocket Inspection
- Thread starter Roadster Renovations
- Start date
- Status
Guess you get to add yourself to the negligible number of Spyders suffering from this over hyped failure.
CJ JAX
Yes I will but the "negligable" number was presented on this thread as roughly 60 Spyders effected. Of the 100,000+ Spyders built that number is negligible (hence my opinion at the time). So the "60" number was grossly wrong and I'm still not seeing any citations presented that I can research. Posting there is a problem is too easy and why people fear monger for fun (or stupidity). Regardless of this thread and my own "red dust" experience I'm still wondering where or how someone can know the actual numbers. Only BRP and service departments can know what's going on and they are tight lipped on everything.
I can say that this thread did cause me to take 5 minutes of my time and have a look.
Maybe it saved me a roadside/tow issue so all is good in that department.:thumbup:
Machinegunner
New member
Harley uses a compensating sprocket on the crankshaft to eliminate the alternating pulses from their uneven firing order. It is mechanical so should not wear as easily as rubber. It protects their whole drive train.
eddieshep999
Active member
Possible preventative measure
With all the talk of red rust indicating a possible sign of the early stages of the Front Sprocket failures, it may be worth investigating a substance that may prevent the rust in the first place
One product we can purchase in the UK is ACF-50 Not sure if it’s avaible in the USA
There may be other substances that could do the same job and are available and worth looking at
He is some background on ACF-50
http://www.acf-50.co.uk/motorcycle.htm
With all the talk of red rust indicating a possible sign of the early stages of the Front Sprocket failures, it may be worth investigating a substance that may prevent the rust in the first place
One product we can purchase in the UK is ACF-50 Not sure if it’s avaible in the USA
There may be other substances that could do the same job and are available and worth looking at
He is some background on ACF-50
http://www.acf-50.co.uk/motorcycle.htm
Roadster Renovations
New member
Just did a quick check on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=+ACF-50
So it is doable here!! May be better than molly if it does all that is advertised!
The red rust isn't the cause of the issue, it's just a byproduct of the spines failing. There is no real sort of coating on the sprocket splines, just bare on bare metal. Our first F3 that had complete spline failure was a manual shift, so I'm not sure how strong the correlation between the SE6 clunk and the issue is. Our shop hasn't seen this specific type of failure on the 1330 RTs at this point.
IMHO I believe there is less bearing surface between the backside of the sprocket and the shaft as compared to the 990 engine. This coupled with improper torque of the bolt likely exacerbated by BRP's somewhat irritating habit of preloading bolts with loctite is what is causing the issue. What I have observed would seem to indicate the design relies heavily on arresting any movement with solely the tension of the bolt. If it isn't torqued properly it eventually allows movement of the splines and it's all downhill from there.
The loctite 660 is designed to arrest any potential for movement, frankly making the clamping force of the bolt much less important. I understand that heat will have to be used to remove the sprocket eventually, but that really isn't something that you should have to replace that often. Replacing the seal behind it would not be that difficult as infrequently as this operation would need to be undertaken. Fwiw, certain years of ZX6s came from the factory with a obscenely tight front sprocket nut. The advice from the kawasaki tech department was to heat the nut red hot and hit it with an impact gun. The seal obviously needed to be replaced but there was never another issue...
While there may be more than one way to fix the issue, I would recommend anyone still under warranty to go the loctite route, or rather, make sure that your dealership does so for you.
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TexasZ
New member
The red rust isn't the cause of the issue, it's just a byproduct of the spines failing. There is no real sort of coating on the sprocket splines, just bare on bare metal. Our first F3 that had complete spline failure was a manual shift, so I'm not sure how strong the correlation between the SE6 clunk and the issue is. Our shop hasn't seen this specific type of failure on the 1330 RTs at this point.
IMHO I believe there is less bearing surface between the backside of the sprocket and the shaft as compared to the 990 engine. This coupled with improper torque of the bolt likely exacerbated by BRP's somewhat irritating habit of preloading bolts with loctite is what is causing the issue. What I have observed would seem to indicate the design relies heavily on arresting any movement with solely the tension of the bolt. If it isn't torqued properly it eventually allows movement of the splines and it's all downhill from there.
The loctite 660 is designed to arrest any potential for movement, frankly making the clamping force of the bolt much less important. I understand that heat will have to be used to remove the sprocket eventually, but that really isn't something that you should have to replace that often. Replacing the seal behind it would not be that difficult as infrequently as this operation would need to be undertaken. Fwiw, certain years of ZX6s came from the factory with a obscenely tight front sprocket nut. The advice from the kawasaki tech department was to heat the nut red hot and hit it with an impact gun. The seal obviously needed to be replaced but there was never another issue...
While there may be more than one way to fix the issue, I would recommend anyone still under warranty to go the loctite route, or rather, make sure that your dealership does so for you.
Well said, clearly explained. Thanks once again for the info you have provided in your multiple posts, much appreciated!!!
If I was having the dealership do the job I would have a tube of the 660 in my hand to give them when I made the request for it to be used.
Edited to add that I checked the service manual and it appears that if the seal ever needed to be replaced it is no big deal or hassle to do it.
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Sadly, it seems that at many dealers, even handing over the stuff you want them to use doesn't necessarily mean it'll end up being used on your (or even any) Spyder!! :shocked:
Unless you actually WATCH them doing the job, you'll never know for sure.... :dontknow:
zuni
Member
You keep pointing back to "100,000+" Spyders as your reference when all we are discussing is the F3 model line which represents a small percentage of the overall sales. Only a couple model years in relation to the 10 years Spyders have been sold. Yes it has happened on a couple of recent RT models but again not what I brought up over a year ago with my first failure..
None the less glad yours was caught and others know what to watch for. Hope my last repair in August for this issue was my last.
CJ JAX
TexasZ
New member
So true, that's exactly the reason that I will personally do the job myself.Sadly, it seems that at many dealers, even handing over the stuff you want them to use doesn't necessarily mean it'll end up being used on your (or even any) Spyder!! :shocked:
Roadster Renovations
New member
Didn't check on the seal replacement, so that puts the 660 back up the running for me as a possibility.
Roadster Renovations
New member
Big Brother
You all know that BRP is watching this thread closely and that we will all probably figure out which fix works that they will then adopt! With the entire knowledge that everyone has brought to this thread, there is no way that they could even hire that much intellectual wisdom and experience. Sad that it came to that, but glad that it did.
You all know that BRP is watching this thread closely and that we will all probably figure out which fix works that they will then adopt! With the entire knowledge that everyone has brought to this thread, there is no way that they could even hire that much intellectual wisdom and experience. Sad that it came to that, but glad that it did.
CarolinaSpyderRyder
New member
Pretty sure
This just happened to my 2014 RSS with 27,000 miles. Wondering if maybe these engines weren't designed with Reverse in mind and maybe it backs the bolt out a little. will post again when I find out more.
This just happened to my 2014 RSS with 27,000 miles. Wondering if maybe these engines weren't designed with Reverse in mind and maybe it backs the bolt out a little. will post again when I find out more.
cmarsala
Member
Sprocket
Roadster, it's interesting that you say that since I forwarded all the data I collected to them and haven't heard anything back. Maybe they're getting ready to come out with a TSB or a Recall. A recall with a good permanent fix would be great.. Ride on everyone!
Roadster, it's interesting that you say that since I forwarded all the data I collected to them and haven't heard anything back. Maybe they're getting ready to come out with a TSB or a Recall. A recall with a good permanent fix would be great.. Ride on everyone!
Roadster Renovations
New member
You probably won't. Any comment by them could open them up to liability. I will bet you that someone in the know just about s#(t themselves when they read that two of their dealers put the pulleys on backwards; and the recent one was verified that it didn't matter which way it went on through their main contact. I'm curious if someone called them up next week with the same question, what their response would be. Anybody want to give it a shot?
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Sarge707
Active member
I have called BRP 3 times about this Problem?
1- If your concerned about the Red Dust FIRST just order the $10 New Bolt and take your Bolt out and Take a Picture of the sprocket and Post It- Many will have NO problem .
2- Then bolt on the New bolt (Pre Locktited) and torque to 92 Foot Pounds - I did 96!
3- My Sprocket was Fine at 10,000 miles.
4- Do Not Expect to remove the old Sprocket UNLESS you are good at heat treating a part for removal Because mine was so Tight to the shaft I could never have gotten it off.
Don,t over react--- Only 2 or 3 Pictures of failed sprockets have been posted????
A $10 Bolt removal, Check sprocket, and replace Bolt is a realistic way to approach the problem at minimum expense?nojoke
1- If your concerned about the Red Dust FIRST just order the $10 New Bolt and take your Bolt out and Take a Picture of the sprocket and Post It- Many will have NO problem .
2- Then bolt on the New bolt (Pre Locktited) and torque to 92 Foot Pounds - I did 96!
3- My Sprocket was Fine at 10,000 miles.
4- Do Not Expect to remove the old Sprocket UNLESS you are good at heat treating a part for removal Because mine was so Tight to the shaft I could never have gotten it off.
Don,t over react--- Only 2 or 3 Pictures of failed sprockets have been posted????
A $10 Bolt removal, Check sprocket, and replace Bolt is a realistic way to approach the problem at minimum expense?nojoke
Roadster Renovations
New member
Sarge, that is a good way to look at it. Guess you decided to not try/didn't have a pulley puller to remove it for inspection?
Freddy
Active member
Sarge, that pic of yours in #143 shows red dust yet the pulley is tight on the shaft you say. This was found also to be the case on some 990 failures. The pulley was worn but the wear misaligned the splines for easy removal - just a point of interest or confusion as the case may be. That red dust is bleeding from behind the large washer.
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