Roadster Renovations
New member
Could it be possible that the sloppiness of the sprocket fit is breaking the bolt tension? Could be a combination. I don't think that the bolt would loosen up without play in the splines.
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F3 Front Sprocket Inspection
- Thread starter Roadster Renovations
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Could it be possible that the sloppiness of the sprocket fit is breaking the bolt tension? Could be a combination. I don't think that the bolt would loosen up without play in the splines.
SPYD3R
Active member
NEW OLD MINE
HOPE you can read either picture....
who is right, does it make a difference, what's for lunch, Merry Christmas.....
Dan P
SPYD3R
according to some, the old part # for the sprocket is 7055011986 & the new part # is 705502134.....
mine is: 705502131.....
mine is: 705502131.....
HOPE you can read either picture....who is right, does it make a difference, what's for lunch, Merry Christmas.....
Dan P
SPYD3R
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The sad fact remains that I do not know (or could know) which part would clamp better.
I'm at the mercy of my dealer who I feel is doing a good job at taking care of my ride.
I think after my dealer does his thing this issue will require my attention from time to time.
What's nice though is that to look for the evil red dust requires only two minutes to remove the 3 cover bolts.
greybeard
New member
gears
O.k. I have to jump in here. Just a few facts, I'm retired tool maker. The gear and spline have to have play or it would not turn, the gear and spline or another gear should make contact only at the pitch dia. which is a very small area, the shape of the teeth is very important. Different manufacturers should have nothing to do with it. The tolerances specified by the engineer should never allow for more or less than the allowable play. BRP quality control should be checking when these come in the door. Maybe every 5th part, put if you find a problem they should go back and check every one.
The problem here is that assembly is transmitting motion is a radial direction, but the belt is trying to pull the pulley out of alignment with spline. The top of the pulley tooth and bottom of the spline should never touch.
the locating dia. and taper on the bolt and dia. and taper in the shaft should achieve this goal, but the dia and tapers must be concentric. A precision machine shop should have no problems achieving these goals.
Loctite between teeth and spline would only cause problems. Excess pressure on the belt would magnify any little problem. A bad casting with pits could break down
Things to look for-you can use a neversieze product on the gears, and guess what? some of these products look exactly like your red rust. Check wear marks on the bolt head taper and shaft hole, are they only on one side?. Is the bottom of the screw head bottoming on the shaft before it tightens on the pulley?
Very easy to check the play with flat feeler gauges between one gear tooth and spline and roll it around, maybe check in 2 places front and back
A tech should only take about 15 minutes to do this, especially on F3 with no tuperware.
Paul
O.k. I have to jump in here. Just a few facts, I'm retired tool maker. The gear and spline have to have play or it would not turn, the gear and spline or another gear should make contact only at the pitch dia. which is a very small area, the shape of the teeth is very important. Different manufacturers should have nothing to do with it. The tolerances specified by the engineer should never allow for more or less than the allowable play. BRP quality control should be checking when these come in the door. Maybe every 5th part, put if you find a problem they should go back and check every one.
The problem here is that assembly is transmitting motion is a radial direction, but the belt is trying to pull the pulley out of alignment with spline. The top of the pulley tooth and bottom of the spline should never touch.
the locating dia. and taper on the bolt and dia. and taper in the shaft should achieve this goal, but the dia and tapers must be concentric. A precision machine shop should have no problems achieving these goals.
Loctite between teeth and spline would only cause problems. Excess pressure on the belt would magnify any little problem. A bad casting with pits could break down
Things to look for-you can use a neversieze product on the gears, and guess what? some of these products look exactly like your red rust. Check wear marks on the bolt head taper and shaft hole, are they only on one side?. Is the bottom of the screw head bottoming on the shaft before it tightens on the pulley?
Very easy to check the play with flat feeler gauges between one gear tooth and spline and roll it around, maybe check in 2 places front and back
A tech should only take about 15 minutes to do this, especially on F3 with no tuperware.
Paul
jcthorne
Well-known member
No idea what you are trying to relay here but...There is no problem with the engagement of the belt to the sprocket, nor of the teeth on the gears in the transmission. This is solely and issue with fit of the male and female splined output shaft and sprocket bore....and the single bolt that keeps them together.
Sarge707
Active member
Why are people getting different stock #s? The BRP Parts list 2015-2017 All end in 2134. Gonna check my # .
According to my CD Shop Manual you only have to loosen belt enough to walk off the rear wheel and then replace sprocket AND new stock # Bolt 705502292 (2017).Cost is about $115. Torque to 92 Foot pounds. The bolt has the locktite already on it.
I Called BRP Customer service and She said NO ONE else has called. If everyone picks up the phone and calls it would do more than E-Mails they can discard?
According to my CD Shop Manual you only have to loosen belt enough to walk off the rear wheel and then replace sprocket AND new stock # Bolt 705502292 (2017).Cost is about $115. Torque to 92 Foot pounds. The bolt has the locktite already on it.
I Called BRP Customer service and She said NO ONE else has called. If everyone picks up the phone and calls it would do more than E-Mails they can discard?
SPYD3R
Active member
2134 vs.2131
Sarge;
if in fact the original gear has the part # ending in '2134', then why does mine end in '2131'....?
check out my pix in an earlier post...
as for the 'bolt'... the bolt is there ONLY to hold the gear (sprocket) from coming off the spline... no other reason... and YES it must be torqued to the proper 'ft lbs' to hold things together....
Dan P
SPYD3R
Sarge;
if in fact the original gear has the part # ending in '2134', then why does mine end in '2131'....?
check out my pix in an earlier post...
as for the 'bolt'... the bolt is there ONLY to hold the gear (sprocket) from coming off the spline... no other reason... and YES it must be torqued to the proper 'ft lbs' to hold things together....
Dan P
SPYD3R
always young
New member
Another 2 cent comment
I see that someone is looking at applying lock wire to the bolt to secure it. Another item used on aircraft and race cars is to mark the bolt with torque seal. It's basically an epoxy type marker used across the bolt and adjacent surface. If the bolt moves any, the epoxy (bright red) will break and show a crack. This will indicate that the bolt has loosened. You might even be able to check this without removing the cover. Yup, just checked. Lay on your back and shine a light up under there and you can clearly see the bolt and sprocket without removing anything. A 10 second task. Well.... that depends on how long it take you to get down and back up off the floor.
hyea:
I see that someone is looking at applying lock wire to the bolt to secure it. Another item used on aircraft and race cars is to mark the bolt with torque seal. It's basically an epoxy type marker used across the bolt and adjacent surface. If the bolt moves any, the epoxy (bright red) will break and show a crack. This will indicate that the bolt has loosened. You might even be able to check this without removing the cover. Yup, just checked. Lay on your back and shine a light up under there and you can clearly see the bolt and sprocket without removing anything. A 10 second task. Well.... that depends on how long it take you to get down and back up off the floor.
hyea:
Omcge
New member
How the red oxide(Rust) is formed
This explains how the Rust (Iron Oxide) is formed . Not my words found on Internet.
Fretting wear is surface damage that occurs between two contacting surfaces experiencing cyclic motion (oscillatory tangential displacement) of small amplitude. This type of wear further promotes two-body abrasion, adhesion and/or fretting fatigue (a form of surface fatigue) wear.
When fretting wear occurs in a corrosive environment, both the rubbing-off of oxide films and the increased abrasiveness of the harder oxidized wear debris tend to greatly accelerate wear. When corrosion activity is distinctly evident, as denoted by the color of the debris particles, the process is referred to as fretting corrosion.
Fretting Wear
Fretting wear is also known as vibrational wear, chafing, fatigue, wear oxidation, friction oxidation, false brinelling, molecular attrition, fretting fatigue and corrosion. Because virtually all machines vibrate, fretting occurs in joints that are bolted, pinned, press-fitted, keyed and riveted; between components that are not intended to move; in oscillating splines, couplings, bearings, clutches, spindles and seals; and in base plates, universal joints and shackles. Fretting has initiated fatigue cracks which often result in fatigue failure in shafts and other highly stressed components.
Fretting wear is a surface-to-surface type of wear and is greatly affected by the displacement amplitude, normal loading, material properties, number of cycles, humidity and lubrication.
Fretting Wear Process
Cyclic motion between contacting surfaces is the essential ingredient in all types of fretting wear. It is a combination process that requires surfaces to be in contact and be exposed to small amplitude oscillations. Depending on the material properties of surfaces, adhesive, two-body abrasion and/or solid particles may produce wear debris. Wear particles detach and become comminuted (crushed) and the wear mechanism changes to three-body abrasion when the work-hardened debris starts removing metal from the surfaces.
Fretting wear occurs as a result of the following sequence of events:
Fretting Wear Characteristics
The key factor in fretting wear is a mechanically loaded interface subjected to a small oscillatory motion. The relative motion required to produce damage may be quite small, as low as one micrometer, but more often is around a few thousandths of an inch. The wear coefficient depends on the amplitude of oscillation.
This explains how the Rust (Iron Oxide) is formed . Not my words found on Internet.
Fretting wear is surface damage that occurs between two contacting surfaces experiencing cyclic motion (oscillatory tangential displacement) of small amplitude. This type of wear further promotes two-body abrasion, adhesion and/or fretting fatigue (a form of surface fatigue) wear.
When fretting wear occurs in a corrosive environment, both the rubbing-off of oxide films and the increased abrasiveness of the harder oxidized wear debris tend to greatly accelerate wear. When corrosion activity is distinctly evident, as denoted by the color of the debris particles, the process is referred to as fretting corrosion.
Fretting Wear
Fretting wear is also known as vibrational wear, chafing, fatigue, wear oxidation, friction oxidation, false brinelling, molecular attrition, fretting fatigue and corrosion. Because virtually all machines vibrate, fretting occurs in joints that are bolted, pinned, press-fitted, keyed and riveted; between components that are not intended to move; in oscillating splines, couplings, bearings, clutches, spindles and seals; and in base plates, universal joints and shackles. Fretting has initiated fatigue cracks which often result in fatigue failure in shafts and other highly stressed components.
Fretting wear is a surface-to-surface type of wear and is greatly affected by the displacement amplitude, normal loading, material properties, number of cycles, humidity and lubrication.
Fretting Wear Process
Cyclic motion between contacting surfaces is the essential ingredient in all types of fretting wear. It is a combination process that requires surfaces to be in contact and be exposed to small amplitude oscillations. Depending on the material properties of surfaces, adhesive, two-body abrasion and/or solid particles may produce wear debris. Wear particles detach and become comminuted (crushed) and the wear mechanism changes to three-body abrasion when the work-hardened debris starts removing metal from the surfaces.
Fretting wear occurs as a result of the following sequence of events:
- The applied normal load causes asperities to adhere, and the tangential oscillatory motion shears the asperities and generates wear debris that accumulates.
- The surviving (harder) asperities eventually act on the smooth softer surfaces causing them to undergo plastic deformation, create voids, propagate cracks and shear off sheets of particles which also accumulate in depressed portions of the surfaces.
- Once the particles have accumulated sufficiently to span the gap between the surfaces, abrasion wear occurs and the wear zone spreads laterally.
- As adhesion, delamination and abrasion wear continue, wear debris can no longer be contained in the initial zone and it escapes into surrounding valleys.
- Because the maximum stress is at the center, the geometry becomes curved, micropits form and these coalesce into larger and deeper pits. Finally, depending on the displacement of the tangential motion, worm tracks or even large fissures can be generated in one or both surfaces.
Fretting Wear Characteristics
The key factor in fretting wear is a mechanically loaded interface subjected to a small oscillatory motion. The relative motion required to produce damage may be quite small, as low as one micrometer, but more often is around a few thousandths of an inch. The wear coefficient depends on the amplitude of oscillation.
Sarge707
Active member
That's why I asked? Are the 2134 Failing Or the Substitute (Different) Part Numbers?
Roadster Renovations
New member
A suggestion for everyone that has one fail from this point forward; note what part number the sprocket is. We may be able to develop a pattern. If BRP has superseded the number with a revised part and still installing the older number to stop loosing the $$ invested in the old stock, we are the ones that are paying for it.
If nothing else, it will help determine if the newer number are also failing.
cmarsala
Member
Sprocket
Sarge, sounds like a good question to ask, could those that are having failure issues post the part number if it's available, mine is 2131 and so far no issue, but I am installing safety wire, it's from my old aircraft days, using 0.32 safety wire and I've already marked the bolt with an epoxy mark after I retorqued the bolt, so we shall see. Post your part number of failures or the red rust sprocket.
Oh and I got a PM from a thin skined hypocrite with a very nasty remark, OMG, Ya'll know who it is, some people:yikes::lecturef_smilie: :roflblack::doorag:
Sarge, sounds like a good question to ask, could those that are having failure issues post the part number if it's available, mine is 2131 and so far no issue, but I am installing safety wire, it's from my old aircraft days, using 0.32 safety wire and I've already marked the bolt with an epoxy mark after I retorqued the bolt, so we shall see. Post your part number of failures or the red rust sprocket.
Oh and I got a PM from a thin skined hypocrite with a very nasty remark, OMG, Ya'll know who it is, some people:yikes::lecturef_smilie: :roflblack::doorag:
Freddy
Active member
cmarsala - did the bolt moved when you retorqued it? If so, about how much?
Secondly, on the early trikes that had this same failure 5-8 years ago the problem was not the bolt backing out, it was the relative movement/wear between the flange on the shaft and the mating face on the inside of the pulley that caused bolt to be 'loose.' Consequently, I don't see much point in wiring the bolt.
Secondly, on the early trikes that had this same failure 5-8 years ago the problem was not the bolt backing out, it was the relative movement/wear between the flange on the shaft and the mating face on the inside of the pulley that caused bolt to be 'loose.' Consequently, I don't see much point in wiring the bolt.
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SPYD3R
Active member
Sarge
Sarge;
going back to an earlier post of mine:
according to some, the old part # for the sprocket is 7055011986 & the new part # is 705502134.....
mine is: 705502131.....
we now have 3 different part numbers.... my fwd gear (sprocket) failed back on Jan. 28, 2016 @ 17,000+ miles... at that time my dealer installed a new gear, part # 705502131... others have had installed part # 705502134...
are both newer part # good gears? have any of these part # also failed? worse question to ask, but must be: has anyone suffered injury based on this part failing while riding...?
Dan P
SPYD3R
Sarge;
going back to an earlier post of mine:
according to some, the old part # for the sprocket is 7055011986 & the new part # is 705502134.....
mine is: 705502131.....
we now have 3 different part numbers.... my fwd gear (sprocket) failed back on Jan. 28, 2016 @ 17,000+ miles... at that time my dealer installed a new gear, part # 705502131... others have had installed part # 705502134...
are both newer part # good gears? have any of these part # also failed? worse question to ask, but must be: has anyone suffered injury based on this part failing while riding...?
Dan P
SPYD3R
jcthorne
Well-known member
Roadster Renovations
New member
Follow this link and go to the bottom for part number 50 and you will see it has a superseded number crossed out. That is that 1986
https://www.cheapcycleparts.com/oemparts/a/cam/53f54816f870021dbc21b88b/drive-system-rear
SPYD3R
Active member
Roadster;
ok, fine, i saw this list and 'yes' it does state a replacement gear, which is 2134.... but why does mine end in: 2131....???
this situation should be made into a mystery movie titled: FINDING THE REAL SPROCKET.....
I now have 27,000+ miles of smiles on my 2nd fwd gear, and i see NO rust, so i'm GOOD 2 GO.... (i hope)....
Dan P
SPYD3R
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