BajaRon
Well-known member
Very sad to see this. And difficult to detach yourself, move back and look at the big picture.
I am sure you would feel much better if a new engine were installed. However, the real question here is; Do you NEED a new engine to resolve the physical issue of a failed bearing? The objective evidence provided so far would strongly suggest 'No'. The problem is, it can be difficult to be objective when this kind of thing happens.
As others have mentioned. There are some questions which still need to be answered. Like, how many balls are in this set? Are they all accounted for? Are any of the debris stuck on the magnet pieces of the failed bearing? Based on the location of this bearing, it is hard to see how any collateral damage could have occured. Not saying it couldn't. Just very likely that it didn't. Given that the information is not complete, here is my valueless assessment based on what I can see.
First, the balls captured by the magnet appear to be in very good shape. I cannot see any gouges, scrapes or nicks. Closer inspection would reveal information one way or the other. However, this, to me, would be good news. For these balls to have caused any damage, they would be much worse for the encounter.
The race cage, though broken and distorted, also appears to be in good condition. It appears to be in 1 piece and not as mangled as it would be if caught in a gear or otherwise creating more issues.
There is debris material on the magnet. But I've seen worse from the first oil change on a Spyder with no particular issues. It would be good to know if this was normal junk, broken bearing pieces, or an indication of collateral damage from the bearing failure.
Another question, which I am surprised has not been addressed is, what did the oil filter look like? There are a lot of non-ferrous parts in this engine. These, of course. will not be captured by the magnet. But would show up on the filter media. If there is a good deal of visible debris there. It would indicate other damage. If not, it would be a sign that the bearing simply fell apart and was captured by the magnet before doing any additional harm. These bearing parts, other than the race ring, are pretty heavy for their surface area. They would want to fall right to the bottom of the case. Not float around doing more damage. This also is a good thing.
Yes, this failure has potential to do a good deal of harm to the engine. But that does not mean that it has, in fact, created any additional issues. If a thorough inspection indicates nothing more than a failed bearing. Then this fix should resolve the problem.
Though everyone would like to get a new motor in a situation like this. Realistically, it may not be necessary. It may well be that the only thing wrong here is the obvious bearing failure. Replacing the failed part(s) may well give you the same results as a motor swap. Understandably, the 'May' in this sentence being the fly-in-the-ointment here. But still a very likely outcome.
I am not saying that you are wrong to press for a new motor. Who knows? At the very least, it will be documented and can be sighted if there are future issues from this event. I'm just saying that if they don't go with the motor swap. It is likely that you will be just fine. You still have a warranty in place. As well as a thoroughly documented issue. If something does let loose in the future, you should have no problem getting it addressed.
I must say that I am impressed by your dealership. I wish more would stand up for the customer as yours has. That is a very critical component in your favor.
We all wish you the best possible outcome on this. You have certainly been through the wringer. Your dealership has done a great job of trying to reduce the pain for something that they had no control over.
Added material 11/09/19
On a side note. I had a 750 Honda that had the shift indexer assembly come apart just north of the San Francisco Bay bridge. There were several small to medium sized components that fell to the bottom of the left side case. It was 9am on a sunny Sunday morning. So not much chance to get any help. I was stuck in 1st gear with no way to change it. Not even able to get to neutral. I pulled over into a sandy wide spot. I had tools to remove the side case, having no idea what I might find, but a lot of time on my hands. I was pretty sure parts would fall out when I spit the vertical case. So I scooped out a spot in the sand directly under where the case would come apart. When I did get the case loose, oil and parts came piling out of the opening.
Not wanting to lose anything. I simply waited for the oil to drain out of the hole. I'm sure I violated several pages of California ordinances concerning hazardous materials disposal. Oh well! They have their policies and I have mine! :thumbup: Once the oil drained into the sand. There were all my parts gloriously perched on top of my scooped out collector.
I reassembled everything right there on the side of the road. One indexer plate had a piece broken off where the 3rd gear pin attached. But it still held the shift pin so I gave it a run. I made it all the way back to San Diego without an issue.
My point being, in all of this, is that even though there were hard machined parts, including bearings, laying in the bottom of that case. Some for quite a few miles as I first lost 5th gear, then 4th, etc., over several miles. Yet there was absolutely no collateral damage. When I got home I replaced the damaged components and put another 30k on that 750 Honda with no further problems. Of course I am not saying that your situation is identical. I am just saying that there is a great possibility that replacing the broken components will give you the same results as replacing the entire engine.
I am sure you would feel much better if a new engine were installed. However, the real question here is; Do you NEED a new engine to resolve the physical issue of a failed bearing? The objective evidence provided so far would strongly suggest 'No'. The problem is, it can be difficult to be objective when this kind of thing happens.
As others have mentioned. There are some questions which still need to be answered. Like, how many balls are in this set? Are they all accounted for? Are any of the debris stuck on the magnet pieces of the failed bearing? Based on the location of this bearing, it is hard to see how any collateral damage could have occured. Not saying it couldn't. Just very likely that it didn't. Given that the information is not complete, here is my valueless assessment based on what I can see.
First, the balls captured by the magnet appear to be in very good shape. I cannot see any gouges, scrapes or nicks. Closer inspection would reveal information one way or the other. However, this, to me, would be good news. For these balls to have caused any damage, they would be much worse for the encounter.
The race cage, though broken and distorted, also appears to be in good condition. It appears to be in 1 piece and not as mangled as it would be if caught in a gear or otherwise creating more issues.
There is debris material on the magnet. But I've seen worse from the first oil change on a Spyder with no particular issues. It would be good to know if this was normal junk, broken bearing pieces, or an indication of collateral damage from the bearing failure.
Another question, which I am surprised has not been addressed is, what did the oil filter look like? There are a lot of non-ferrous parts in this engine. These, of course. will not be captured by the magnet. But would show up on the filter media. If there is a good deal of visible debris there. It would indicate other damage. If not, it would be a sign that the bearing simply fell apart and was captured by the magnet before doing any additional harm. These bearing parts, other than the race ring, are pretty heavy for their surface area. They would want to fall right to the bottom of the case. Not float around doing more damage. This also is a good thing.
Yes, this failure has potential to do a good deal of harm to the engine. But that does not mean that it has, in fact, created any additional issues. If a thorough inspection indicates nothing more than a failed bearing. Then this fix should resolve the problem.
Though everyone would like to get a new motor in a situation like this. Realistically, it may not be necessary. It may well be that the only thing wrong here is the obvious bearing failure. Replacing the failed part(s) may well give you the same results as a motor swap. Understandably, the 'May' in this sentence being the fly-in-the-ointment here. But still a very likely outcome.
I am not saying that you are wrong to press for a new motor. Who knows? At the very least, it will be documented and can be sighted if there are future issues from this event. I'm just saying that if they don't go with the motor swap. It is likely that you will be just fine. You still have a warranty in place. As well as a thoroughly documented issue. If something does let loose in the future, you should have no problem getting it addressed.
I must say that I am impressed by your dealership. I wish more would stand up for the customer as yours has. That is a very critical component in your favor.
We all wish you the best possible outcome on this. You have certainly been through the wringer. Your dealership has done a great job of trying to reduce the pain for something that they had no control over.
Added material 11/09/19
On a side note. I had a 750 Honda that had the shift indexer assembly come apart just north of the San Francisco Bay bridge. There were several small to medium sized components that fell to the bottom of the left side case. It was 9am on a sunny Sunday morning. So not much chance to get any help. I was stuck in 1st gear with no way to change it. Not even able to get to neutral. I pulled over into a sandy wide spot. I had tools to remove the side case, having no idea what I might find, but a lot of time on my hands. I was pretty sure parts would fall out when I spit the vertical case. So I scooped out a spot in the sand directly under where the case would come apart. When I did get the case loose, oil and parts came piling out of the opening.
Not wanting to lose anything. I simply waited for the oil to drain out of the hole. I'm sure I violated several pages of California ordinances concerning hazardous materials disposal. Oh well! They have their policies and I have mine! :thumbup: Once the oil drained into the sand. There were all my parts gloriously perched on top of my scooped out collector.
I reassembled everything right there on the side of the road. One indexer plate had a piece broken off where the 3rd gear pin attached. But it still held the shift pin so I gave it a run. I made it all the way back to San Diego without an issue.
My point being, in all of this, is that even though there were hard machined parts, including bearings, laying in the bottom of that case. Some for quite a few miles as I first lost 5th gear, then 4th, etc., over several miles. Yet there was absolutely no collateral damage. When I got home I replaced the damaged components and put another 30k on that 750 Honda with no further problems. Of course I am not saying that your situation is identical. I am just saying that there is a great possibility that replacing the broken components will give you the same results as replacing the entire engine.
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