Ball Bearings & Metal Ring Found in Engine Oil During 3K Mile SVC - Help!

[007james]

Kudos to a great Dealer! We need more like them. Truthfully, I wonder how many Dealer “Technicians” across the U.S. and Canada, would have NOT reported finding the loose Ball Bearings and Retainer Ring in the Oil and just refilled with new Oil & Filter, because its peak riding season, and they are backed with up to a month of service work to deal with ahead of them, as is the case with most multi Brand Dealers? Its amazing that the Spyder still shifted with the retainer ring not attached, or making any grinding sounds. This is another fine example of how we Spyder Owners are at the mercy of our Dealer’s , Technicians, as much as the Dealer Owners. If an over worked Technician working alone in a busy Shop decides to go on his per-scheduled Vacation, instead of opening a can of worms that will cause him to delay his booked Vacation plans,.....will he do what this honest Tech did, and report the finding of loose ball bearings, which will open an immediate can of worms for him, or just ignore the findings, knowing that the Spyder Owner will be back later, after he has time to deal with negotiating a new engine with BRP? Just food for thought, to those who rely on the Dealer to change their Oil.
007James

This was all discovered in house at the flagship premium BRP authorised dealer. The owner of the dealership has has gone above and beyond the call of duty to help me against this battle with BRP. He is someone who I've become friends with over the years where I purchased my previous 2008 Spyder GS I had for a decade before upgrading to this '18 F3L. I trust he will do whatever is within his power to get my Spyder addressed or replaced. I really WANT my Spyder because it's a 10th Anniversary Edition so I'll never find another new one like it.

 

[stmike 1800]

How much work to replace the defected parts as per bulletin.

 

[PMK]

Magnetic drain plugs can tell a story, both good and bad.

Upon first reading about what the tech found on your Spyder magnetic drain plug, my heart sank.

As a person that has worked on vehicles valued much more than a Spyder, that may also have a magnetic drain plug, I want to share that the items captured by the magnet tell a story and give great insight regarding what next step should happen.

I am not there to inspect the drain plug but offer this. The drain plug appears to have captured the steel balls. Not sure how the bearing cage was removed as it seems larger than the drain plug hole.

Going further, the drain plug should be inspected for debris that is not the balls themselves, but rather bits of items that could be damaged, such as gearbox parts, from these balls getting tossed about. If there is not debris beyond normal captures on the drain plug, that indicates those steel balls may have not have done damage.

With a bit of luck, the tech will be told exactly how many steel balls were contained within that failed bearing, and all are accounted for with no impact marks and no debris of concern on the magnet.

With this known issue, BRP has probably rationalized the path of the failed bearing parts and would not suggest a simple replacement if further risks existed.

Sorry to read about how many other issues you have had, but it does appear you have great dealer that will get your Spyder sorted out and take great care of it for you.

All the best with this.

 

[Seattle]

You point out the very exact concerns I also hold regarding this failure. Due to the fact BRP has an existing bulletin for this "shift index lever" flaw, I'm a bit more anxious as to what else has been damaged within the engine and transmission. Therefore, I have requested for my technician if necessary, request for a complete engine replacement expecting that BRP likely will deny the request. I hope it doesn't come to this. Based on what others have shared about complete replacements can present a whole set of new problems in itself.

I've put more miles on the four brand new 2018 RT loaners over the past 18 months than I have on my own personal Spyder that's been repeatedly in the shop for another ongoing issue of which BRP refuses to resolve. That particular issue isn't just isolated to my Spyder either which you'll discover in the linked discussion thread.

For the most part, the BRP has created some very well built machines over the years, but on occasion there's a bad unit or two in the mix. That happens with any vehicle manufacturer. I've had a great run for a decade with the very first generation Spyder's that they've produced. I'm a stout ambassador for the brand and will remain as such. However, it appears I won the lemon lottery with this particular Spyder unfortunately. If it were not a 10th Anniversary Edition model, which I've come to sincerely like the visible aesthetics, I'd probably be considering replacement altogether. I would like to give BRP every chance to make things right even if there has to be a lot of back-n-forth haggling with them. I'll cross the bridge of no return should things just not work out for me.

I see the balls and I see the cage (little ring) that holds the balls in place. What scares me is what I don't see and that is any signs of the inner and outer bearing races. These are made from very hard steel and as a result are very brittle. When they get damaged they will splinter into very small pieces. These metal "splinters" are harder than most of the engine internals and will cause a LOT of damage if allowed to circulate around. They can also be small enough to move through the oil galleries and migrate just about anywhere in the engine. Since the balls and cage are loose one or both of those races is most certainly damaged. I would push HARD for a new engine.

 

[T.P.]

This looks like the outer retainer for a thrust bearing. notice that its not split, so it didn't come from mid shaft but at the end of a shaft between that shift lever and the roller wheel at the end. I will bet you come out of this better then most here think.
T.P.

From the pic in post #10 your missing the roller wheel, you can see the groove that the balls sat in.
BRP part # is 420248489 its a $20. part

 

[ChicagoSpyder]

UPDATE: Service technician was told by BRP engineering that these loose bearings are related to a "shift index lever" metal ring failure that holds in the bearings. My question for him to relay back with BRP engineering – who are now closed for the weekend – where can these bearings travel within the engine and transmission and what kind of damage would they do.

BRP should have either told the dealer to crack the engine open to see the extent of the damage or requested the engine get sent back to Valcourt, in any event they should make the bike whole by replacing the engin with a new one.

 

[Little Blue]

New Engine

As everyone has stated 'Nothing but a New Engine is the Correct Call. ....:thumbup:

 

[007james]

As everyone has stated 'Nothing but a New Engine is the Correct Call. ....:thumbup:

I agree 100% that nothing but a complete new engine would satisfy me, if this Spyder was mine! I would never feel satisfied that these loose balls and retainer ring pieces didn’t cause damage to other parts of the engine or Tranny that would show up by surprise any time in the future. BRP should take this engine back, split the Case, inspect for damaged parts, and determine why this happened, then repair as needed, and offer it ONLY as a Factory Rebuilt engine with stated low mileage to Dealers or Owners. Its the only decent choice by BRP to do, as a reputable Company.
007James

 

[PMK]

As everyone has stated 'Nothing but a New Engine is the Correct Call. ....:thumbup:

I disagree and retain my opinion to verify if all the steel balls have been collected by the magnet. Inspect the balls for damage. When installing the replacement shift index arm, locate the outer bearing race and remove it. Inspect that also.

Not sure how many of those posting have ever disassembled a motorcycle sequential gearbox. In all my experience, whenever debris such as this becomes involved in the running gearbox, typically the gearbox locks up solid. The photo of the magnetic drain plug does not indicate abnormal wear or damage with additional metal contamination.

Add to this, where does the indexer reside and what proximity to the magnet? To be clear, the indexer arm does not reside within the actual gearbox cases, but is positioned on the outside of the actual gearbox, with the only common access being oil drain back passageways.

 

[Haikanko]

I disagree and retain my opinion to verify if all the steel balls have been collected by the magnet. Inspect the balls for damage. When installing the replacement shift index arm, locate the outer bearing race and remove it. Inspect that also.

Not sure how many of those posting have ever disassembled a motorcycle sequential gearbox. In all my experience, whenever debris such as this becomes involved in the running gearbox, typically the gearbox locks up solid. The photo of the magnetic drain plug does not indicate abnormal wear or damage with additional metal contamination.

Add to this, where does the indexer reside and what proximity to the magnet? To be clear, the indexer arm does not reside within the actual gearbox cases, but is positioned on the outside of the actual gearbox, with the only common access being oil drain back passageways.

The bike is under warranty so do not give BRP the excuss to defunk on their responsibility!!!

 

[bikerbillone]

There's no way I'd ever be comfortable with this engine no matter what the 'experts' said.

 

[KX5062]

I disagree and retain my opinion to verify if all the steel balls have been collected by the magnet. Inspect the balls for damage. When installing the replacement shift index arm, locate the outer bearing race and remove it. Inspect that also.

Not sure how many of those posting have ever disassembled a motorcycle sequential gearbox. In all my experience, whenever debris such as this becomes involved in the running gearbox, typically the gearbox locks up solid. The photo of the magnetic drain plug does not indicate abnormal wear or damage with additional metal contamination.

Add to this, where does the indexer reside and what proximity to the magnet? To be clear, the indexer arm does not reside within the actual gearbox cases, but is positioned on the outside of the actual gearbox, with the only common access being oil drain back passageways.

While all true, I also disagree.

If it were a piece of bronze or brass bushing, since that's a very soft material, I might agree. However, all of these pieces are hardened steel, which even a very small piece or pieces can cause a great deal of harm over the long term. It may not cause a catastrophic failure, but the wear and tear over the miles is unacceptable.

 

[JoshHefnerX]

All it takes is for one of those steel bb's to have hit a piece of aluminum just right for a crack to start. May be several thousand miles/months/years for that crack to propagate to the point where there's a big problem. There's no way to know what those bb's did on the way down to the pan w/o a complete dissasembly and inspection.

I had an input shaft bearing ball work it's way out in an M-21 the gear sliced it up like a carrot. Most of the trans was ok... Most.. some of that worked its way back into the reverse housing somehow and broke some teeth off on the rear reverse idler gear. The trans ran fine w/ no notice of problems. Only way I found it was doing a clutch change and the input shaft wobbled badly.

 

[Freddy]

The trans ran fine w/ no notice of problems. Just like a Spyder - nothing wrong with it. :thumbup:

 

[PMK]

Very sad to read so much misunderstanding and lack of knowledge within these posts about what the shift indexer is and where it lives. The shift indexer does not live within the transmission gear area of the gearbox. it resides outside, on the opposite side of the engine case, at the lower point in the oil system. The clutch resides outboard of the indexer. The indexer is shadowed / covered by the shift mechanism linkage.

If there is any gear in the engine capable of lifting one of these balls and crunching it, that would be the clutch basket driven gear. However, with the indexer in close proximity to the magnetic drain plug, so much of this speculation simply warrants a visual inspection of the clutch driven gear and other rotating components during replacement of the indexer.

Those people that actually work on motorcycle gearboxes will understand these photos of the indexer. The bearing is a low stress part that may complete one revolution in selecting all of the gears. Many motorcycles will use a simple hardened steel bushing vs a ball bearing. Apparently, Rotax wanted to minimize any effort required to make the gearbox shift.

If the original poster obtains a new complete engine, very well, I doubt this will happen unless there is noted visual damage that warrants replacement. I will say though, I do hope they resolve his other issues with the machine and he enjoys a great time with it. Best part though, he seems to be working with a very qualified Spyder dealer and tech.

 

[KX5062]

Well, I for one, do understand and do have mechanical knowledge, and disagree with your proposition. I doesn't make me wrong or ignorant. I disagree with your opinion, plain and simple.

The odds favor you and it's admittedly unlikely a catastrophic failure will occur, however by having a major part failure like this, you have increased the risk of that catastrophic engine failure tremendously. If that risk is not addressed at the time it was detected, then we all know how it'll be treated by BRP or any other large corporation if it does occur sometime down the road. IE: Like it never happened or they are completely unrelated events and the owner is left struggling to deal with the situation.

 

[PMK]

Well, I for one, do understand and do have mechanical knowledge, and disagree with your proposition. I doesn't make me wrong or ignorant. I disagree with your opinion, plain and simple.

The odds favor you and it's admittedly unlikely a catastrophic failure will occur, however by having a major part failure like this, you have increased the risk of that catastrophic engine failure tremendously. If that risk is not addressed at the time it was detected, then we all know how it'll be treated by BRP or any other large corporation if it does occur sometime down the road. IE: Like it never happened or they are completely unrelated events and the owner is left struggling to deal with the situation.

Fair enough, but those demanding a new replacement engine assembly without determining if there is secondary damage are not being anywhere near reasonable. If the clutch cover is removed, with expectations to simply replace the indexer, then at that time a visual inspection to account for all debris items, accompanied with visual inspection of the clutch driven gear and meshing gears is viable and needed. Any discrepancy regarding missing debris, damaged debris, or damaged secondary items then warrants additional actions.

From what this forum has heard about in the past, there have been those that had complete engines replaced for various reasons and sadly there was hidden damage done during the engine swap that resulted in even greater frustrations. Then again, others have had engines swapped with no issues at all.

If there is a need to replace the engine, then so be it.

 

[Haikanko]

Very sad to read so much misunderstanding and lack of knowledge within these posts about what the shift indexer is and where it lives. The shift indexer does not live within the transmission gear area of the gearbox. it resides outside, on the opposite side of the engine case, at the lower point in the oil system. The clutch resides outboard of the indexer. The indexer is shadowed / covered by the shift mechanism linkage.

If there is any gear in the engine capable of lifting one of these balls and crunching it, that would be the clutch basket driven gear. However, with the indexer in close proximity to the magnetic drain plug, so much of this speculation simply warrants a visual inspection of the clutch driven gear and other rotating components during replacement of the indexer.

Those people that actually work on motorcycle gearboxes will understand these photos of the indexer. The bearing is a low stress part that may complete one revolution in selecting all of the gears. Many motorcycles will use a simple hardened steel bushing vs a ball bearing. Apparently, Rotax wanted to minimize any effort required to make the gearbox shift.

If the original poster obtains a new complete engine, very well, I doubt this will happen unless there is noted visual damage that warrants replacement. I will say though, I do hope they resolve his other issues with the machine and he enjoys a great time with it. Best part though, he seems to be working with a very qualified Spyder dealer and tech.

The balls must have gone from its original area to the drain plug which is in the main body of the engine....... How many balls came out and how many should have been in the bearing - are there any missing???

 

[KX5062]

And don't forget the engine has a gerotor style oil pump, which is highly susceptible to debris damage.

 

[PMK]

And don't forget the engine has a gerotor style oil pump, which is highly susceptible to debris damage.

Don't forget there is an oil suction screen to contain debris at the pumps inlet.