Ball Bearings & Metal Ring Found in Engine Oil During 3K Mile SVC - Help!

[PMK]

The balls must have gone from its original area to the drain plug which is in the main body of the engine....... How many balls came out and how many should have been in the bearing - are there any missing???

Actually no, the engine is dry sump and where this failed bearing resides is behind the clutch basket and shift shaft arm. No rotating crankshaft journals or pistons nearby. If there is damage, the issue is to the clutch basket driven gear and balancer gear. The clutch is removed to replace the indexer arm and failed bearing making a visual inspection easy.

I will be very curious to see if the tech determined if the magnet captured all the steel balls, and if BRP provides a replacement engine.

 

[stmike 1800]

If all the shrapnel can not be found the motor and trans will have to be stripped down.

 

[PMK]

If all the shrapnel can not be found the motor and trans will have to be stripped down.

Absolutely true, but add to this, during accomplishment of replacing the indexer, the clutch drive and driven gears must be inspected.

Someone posted the front page of the service bulletin, it would be far more worthy of a post to have posted every page complete and legible, allowing those here to read the workscope BRP mandates to accomplish the bulletin correctly.

 

[Haikanko]

Absolutely true, but add to this, during accomplishment of replacing the indexer, the clutch drive and driven gears must be inspected.

Someone posted the front page of the service bulletin, it would be far more worthy of a post to have posted every page complete and legible, allowing those here to read the workscope BRP mandates to accomplish the bulletin correctly.

How long have you worked for BRP??

 

[PMK]

How long have you worked for BRP??

Let me see. Just checked again, never have worked for BRP.

I have been on Spyderlovers long enough to see non mechanics go into lynch mob mentality demanding new engines, new Spyders, simply new, new new, even getting the original poster demanding new, only to have their balloons popped when BRP says no and fixes the issue.

Then there is the class action lawsuit folks. Other than the heat / fire issues, most look good at first on paper, but never truly produce anything more than talk and hurt feelings.

How about you, how many years have you worked for BRP?

 

[Haikanko]

Let me see. Just checked again, never have worked for BRP.

I have been on Spyderlovers long enough to see non mechanics go into lynch mob mentality demanding new engines, new Spyders, simply new, new new, even getting the original poster demanding new, only to have their balloons popped when BRP says no and fixes the issue.

Then there is the class action lawsuit folks. Other than the heat / fire issues, most look good at first on paper, but never truly produce anything more than talk and hurt feelings.

How about you, how many years have you worked for BRP?

Zero years but been building racing engines for almost 40 years!!! I see you do not actually own a Spyder!!!

 

[bikerbillone]

Interesting, I don't own a Spyder either, so I try not to get above my pay grade in these discussions, just read and try to use common sense.

 

[Seattle]

In fairness, I'm not interested to pursue a complete engine/transmission replacement if this failure hasn't caused any damage to the respective areas of concern. If it can be repaired and continue to operate fine for thousands of miles beyond then I'd rather opt to follow BRP's bulletin recommendations. Complete replacement potentially could create more never-ending problems.

However, I am curious how or why this shifter index lever would've failed as well as why would BRP issued a bulletin to remedy the failure. I wonder where do these loose ball bearings and the broken race travel? Do they move through the engine/transmission or do they immediately sink to the bottom and cling to the magnetic plug while the Spyder is in operation? I hope someone with definitive knowledge can explain this to me. Additionally, in the summer of 2018, I reported and shared a video with my dealer that I heard an odd metallic sound bouncing around inside my my Spyder left engine casing. At the time I had 712 miles on it. I don't know this recent failure and the unsettling noise I heard back then are related; are they? My Spyder currently has 2746 miles on it when I left it with the dealer last month where it still remains not only dealing with this issue but another unrelated audio system flaw that appears to plague all 2018 Spyder models.

I am hoping people who do understand the Spyder's mechanical nature can precisely explain why this failure occurred. Especially, those of us like myself who are unclear and what to specifically ask in order to effectively resolve the issue. I'm grateful that my dealer has been incredibly responsive to my concerns and doing what they can to address the issue(s).

They have reported to me this week that they have received the new shifter index lever which shows there are nine bearings inside the race. All nine bearings that were clinging to my Spyder's magnetic oil plug are accounted for including what appears to be a part of the race that contained them. BRP has advised the service tech to open the affected area and see if there's any additional damage and see where the rest of the blown race is located. They will make their decision when the tech reports back to them and me.

Service tech sent me two sheets from the shifter index lever bulletin - see attached. I've requested they ask BRP how does this part fail and why is there a bulletin for this. I hope to hear back an informative answer.

Absolutely true, but add to this, during accomplishment of replacing the indexer, the clutch drive and driven gears must be inspected.

Someone posted the front page of the service bulletin, it would be far more worthy of a post to have posted every page complete and legible, allowing those here to read the workscope BRP mandates to accomplish the bulletin correctly.

 

[PMK]

Zero years but been building racing engines for almost 40 years!!! I see you do not actually own a Spyder!!!

Your information is incorrect. Our Spyder is a 2014 RTS bought in January of 2014. Why would you, or where did you decide I do not own a Spyder.

 

[Mikey]

In fairness, I'm not interested to pursue a complete engine/transmission replacement if this failure hasn't caused any damage to the respective areas of concern. If it can be repaired and continue to operate fine for thousands of miles beyond then I'd rather opt to follow BRP's bulletin recommendations. Complete replacement potentially could create more never-ending problems.

However, I am curious how or why this shifter index lever would've failed as well as why would BRP issued a bulletin to remedy the failure. I wonder where do these loose ball bearings and the broken race travel? Do they move through the engine/transmission or do they immediately sink to the bottom and cling to the magnetic plug while the Spyder is in operation? I hope someone with definitive knowledge can explain this to me. Additionally, in the summer of 2018, I reported and shared a video with my dealer that I heard an odd metallic sound bouncing around inside my my Spyder left engine casing. At the time I had 712 miles on it. I don't know this recent failure and the unsettling noise I heard back then are related; are they? My Spyder currently has 2746 miles on it when I left it with the dealer last month where it still remains not only dealing with this issue but another unrelated audio system flaw that appears to plague all 2018 Spyder models.

I am hoping people who do understand the Spyder's mechanical nature can precisely explain why this failure occurred. Especially, those of us like myself who are unclear and what to specifically ask in order to effectively resolve the issue. I'm grateful that my dealer has been incredibly responsive to my concerns and doing what they can to address the issue(s).

They have reported to me this week that they have received the new shifter index lever which shows there are nine bearings inside the race. All nine bearings that were clinging to my Spyder's magnetic oil plug are accounted for including what appears to be a part of the race that contained them. BRP has advised the service tech to open the affected area and see if there's any additional damage and see where the rest of the blown race is located. They will make their decision when the tech reports back to them and me.

Service tech sent me two sheets from the shifter index lever bulletin - see attached. I've requested they ask BRP how does this part fail and why is there a bulletin for this. I hope to hear back an informative answer.

Well this has been really run up the flag pole and back down again!!! Some can say it will be ok , some, not! But where the rubber hits the road is that the same oil in the engine will go threw the transmission, yes there are filters in the run, weather every thing that hits both ends get filtered I DONT KNOW!!!! And we are all speculating with out ripping the system down to see where the darn bearing came from, and do a CSI on the body:dontknow:opcorn: It's probly a case of being a Monday morning install and the person needed a cup of coffee!! I just hope for all that it gets resolved and the owner has a dependable ride in the end!!!

 

[Mikey]

Your information is incorrect. Our Spyder is a 2014 RTS bought in January of 2014. Why would you, or where did you decide I do not own a Spyder.

Breath!!!!:chill:

 

[PMK]

In fairness, I'm not interested to pursue a complete engine/transmission replacement if this failure hasn't caused any damage to the respective areas of concern. If it can be repaired and continue to operate fine for thousands of miles beyond then I'd rather opt to follow BRP's bulletin recommendations. Complete replacement potentially could create more never-ending problems.

However, I am curious how or why this shifter index lever would've failed as well as why would BRP issued a bulletin to remedy the failure. I wonder where do these loose ball bearings and the broken race travel? Do they move through the engine/transmission or do they immediately sink to the bottom and cling to the magnetic plug while the Spyder is in operation? I hope someone with definitive knowledge can explain this to me. Additionally, in the summer of 2018, I reported and shared a video with my dealer that I heard an odd metallic sound bouncing around inside my my Spyder left engine casing. At the time I had 712 miles on it. I don't know this recent failure and the unsettling noise I heard back then are related; are they? My Spyder currently has 2746 miles on it when I left it with the dealer last month where it still remains not only dealing with this issue but another unrelated audio system flaw that appears to plague all 2018 Spyder models.

I am hoping people who do understand the Spyder's mechanical nature can precisely explain why this failure occurred. Especially, those of us like myself who are unclear and what to specifically ask in order to effectively resolve the issue. I'm grateful that my dealer has been incredibly responsive to my concerns and doing what they can to address the issue(s).

They have reported to me this week that they have received the new shifter index lever which shows there are nine bearings inside the race. All nine bearings that were clinging to my Spyder's magnetic oil plug are accounted for including what appears to be a part of the race that contained them. BRP has advised the service tech to open the affected area and see if there's any additional damage and see where the rest of the blown race is located. They will make their decision when the tech reports back to them and me.

Service tech sent me two sheets from the shifter index lever bulletin - see attached. I've requested they ask BRP how does this part fail and why is there a bulletin for this. I hope to hear back an informative answer.

With a service bulletin already released, yours is certainly not the first time they saw this. At a guess, the bearing simply failed, either the outer race broke, maybe the ball separator, or something. Not sure what company or where the bearing was made, but they could have factored in also.

Be sure to let the tech know directly if possible that you had metallic noise concerns previously. This should get him to look closely for secondary damage.

The indexer itself is positioned very low in the cases. It resides outside the main gearbox, but inside the primary drive / clutch area. I am not sure of the exact distance and path from the indexer to the magnetic drain plug, but believe it is about 2 inches.

These designs do share oil for the gearbox and engine. However, there is a suction screen to prevent issues like this from letting the oil pump ingest debris.

Your dealer sounds pretty good, and with that, I hope if they do find secondary damage they extend the warranty case further. Beyond that, lets hope they resolve the other issues too.

 

[PMK]

Breath!!!!:chill:

Difficult sometimes with all the hot air these arm chair, wanna be, Monday morning, mechanics spew...

 

[Peter Aawen]

Difficult sometimes with all the hot air these arm chair, wanna be, Monday morning, mechanics spew...

Sure, there is that, but even if 'they' don't always remember, we (me? you? us? Those of us who know better?! :dontknow: ) should be playing the 'game' here, not just the man! :thumbup:

 

[Seattle]

I feel more reassured knowing there's a suction screen that catches any loose debris so that these broken bits aren't floating anywhere far enough to cause any significant damage; thank you for this important detail. I hope that's confirmed when the investigative and process begins before any repairs are implemented. The service tech did indicate that the replacement shifter index lever parts are more "durable".

As soon as I was told about the shifter index lever failure – it was discovered during the 3K oil service change – I made the service techs fully aware of the metallic sound I had reported back in summer 2018 that the tech. I shared the video with them to forward to BRP. The service techs don't believe they're related since I've since I've managed to ride for 2034 miles while it was ongoing. However, I wanted to ask our community Spyder owners with more mechanical knowledge if they're familiar with the issue and whether if it was a possible cause.

My service technician did share with me what BRP had written to him and implied if at any time in the future there's any other problems related to this shifter index lever failure, it will be covered. However, there wasn't any specified amount of time given for warranty coverage in their correpsondence. That makes me feel uneasy not knowing this.

With a service bulletin already released, yours is certainly not the first time they saw this. At a guess, the bearing simply failed, either the outer race broke, maybe the ball separator, or something. Not sure what company or where the bearing was made, but they could have factored in also.

Be sure to let the tech know directly if possible that you had metallic noise concerns previously. This should get him to look closely for secondary damage.

The indexer itself is positioned very low in the cases. It resides outside the main gearbox, but inside the primary drive / clutch area. I am not sure of the exact distance and path from the indexer to the magnetic drain plug, but believe it is about 2 inches.

These designs do share oil for the gearbox and engine. However, there is a suction screen to prevent issues like this from letting the oil pump ingest debris.

Your dealer sounds pretty good, and with that, I hope if they do find secondary damage they extend the warranty case further. Beyond that, lets hope they resolve the other issues too.

 

[PMK]

Sure, there is that, but even if 'they' don't always remember, we (me? you? us? Those of us who know better?! :dontknow: ) should be playing the 'game' here, not just the man! :thumbup:

Peter, first off, I am truly glad to read the original poster is understanding to the steps involved regarding this shift indexer failure, based on the service bulletin, his tech, and BRP. His other issues with the Spyder is another huge concern that hopefully gets resolved.

I am not fully understanding your words in your post. Realize, I am in no way placing myself as the man if you are implying that. Your choice of the word “game” is a curious one. This entire topic is a wonderful example of a Spyder owner posting a legitimate concern, and a mass majority of uninformed Spyder enthusiasts present the most extreme worse case demands and expect BRP to comply.

As I stated all along, if the debris is accounted for, and a proper visual inspection indicates no secondary damage, AND the compliance with the bulletin is followed, where is the harm? The harm is the unwarranted stress the posts instill on the original poster, and then to read some of the posts negating my opinion or even myself. In the end though, it shall work out for the owner and as for me, it lets me chuckle reading words posted by those that truly know nothing. Gotta love the internet...

 

[Freddy]

Peter,

I am not fully understanding your words in your post. Realize, I am in no way placing myself as the man if you are implying that. Your choice of the word “game” is a curious one. This entire topic is a wonderful example of a Spyder owner posting a legitimate concern, and a mass majority of uninformed Spyder enthusiasts present the most extreme worse case demands and expect BRP to comply.

Gotta love the internet...

Yes, ya gotta love the internet and how it enables Australian, US & UK English to get misunderstood. :roflblack: What Peter's saying is: The 'game' is getting BRP to honour the warranty in the best possible way for the benefit of the customer; the 'man' is a person who is the target of off-topic negative comments (or of unfair and/or very rough tackles on an opponent/man/woman in a game of football in order to 'get even.'

Clear?

 

[Peter Aawen]

There is that!! ^^ And I'm not implying or pointing anything at you PMK, rather just using you as an example to gently remind a few others of how we expect posters to behave & post. :thumbup:

Taking that a bit further, we are all part of a broader Spyder Community here, many of whom have come looking for a friendly & non-confrontational place where they can ask questions about their particular Spyder issues; and as you've shown, there are people here who are kind enough to freely share their knowledge, experience, & advice without expecting anything in return. So even if we don't necessarily always agree with what's been posted, we should always respect the fact that you've made the effort TO post up & share what you've got to offer, & for always addressing the issue & the 'game' rather than personally attacking whoever made the post you might not agree with. :2thumbs:

 

[Coldcoffee30]

Hello gentlemen (and ladies),

As a retirement gift to myself I just bought a used 2015 F3 with 2,400 miles. I have been riding it for about four months now and loving it more and more. Sadly, my first post here isn't a pic of me waving on a scenic road, instead I'm asking for advice from you on this thread. I did all the brakes on Spyder and and I'm able do basic maintenance but I got a little lost with the technical aspects of what really going on.

My engine has the noise described here. At first I thought it may be normal as my 1996 triumph T3 engine that had a rattling sound too (more like a tank though).

What is your recommodation as far as initial steps I should take? I was thinking of immediately changing the oil (myself) and look for any debris /bearings. If i find something then contact BRP?
If i don't, keep checking the magnectic plug every six months?

Thanks in advance.

Gerald

 

[vondalyn]

Hello gentlemen (and ladies),

As a retirement gift to myself I just bought a used 2015 F3 with 2,400 miles. I have been riding it for about four months now and loving it more and more. Sadly, my first post here isn't a pic of me waving on a scenic road, instead I'm asking for advice from you on this thread. I did all the brakes on Spyder and and I'm able do basic maintenance but I got a little lost with the technical aspects of what really going on.

My engine has the noise described here. At first I thought it may be normal as my 1996 triumph T3 engine that had a rattling sound too (more like a tank though).

What is your recommodation as far as initial steps I should take? I was thinking of immediately changing the oil (myself) and look for any debris /bearings. If i find something then contact BRP?
If i don't, keep checking the magnectic plug every six months?

Thanks in advance.

Gerald

It's been my experience that all F3's kind of sound like someone shaking a box of rocks on the left-hand side. I listened to the video and I have to say that it sounds slightly more high-pitched and metallic than what I'm used to. Since it is a video and every computer is different the sound may be distorted from "reality", and also I'm usually standing and above the sound, so today before I go for a ride, I guess I'll have to lean down and see if mine sounds like that up close and down low. That said, I am over 50000 miles and many oil changes (do them ever 4500 miles) and haven't seen this issue yet. I think I got a good one. Like many others. I read these threads and go, "hmmmmmm..... good to know" and then watch to see how it plays out.

I wish Seattle the best of luck with a speedy resolution and I'm happy that the dealer is willing to provide loaners, that's great!