2015 F3S Oil Pump Failure, replaced, engine still ticking - any ideas on what component/s might have been damaged?

[Z71Jamz]

Good Evening. I require some advice from you good people who know a lot more than I do about this.

After commuting to work daily on the Spyder for almost a year, it went into limp mode, and had a bad knocking sound coming from the engine. Given the location of the failure, I had to drive it like this for a total of 10 miles. I took it to the dealer, and they determined that the oil pump was not working, and they replaced it, but they then told me that the engine was still making a bad noise and it required further repair! They quoted me $12K for a brand new engine from BRP and $1200 to swap it out; but wouldn't quote me for an engine teardown & rebuild, which I have to assume is because they didn't want to do that work.

When I picked the Spyder up, we rolled it onto the trailer; and after I got it home, I had to crank it and hear the bad noise for myself. I have to say that it was not as "bad" as I expected; mind you, I know that "bad" is a relative term. I mean, I heard a ticking noise that was louder than it should be, but that quieted down a little bit after the engine was running for a few seconds, ie. after the oil pump had done its job of distributing the oil to the engine parts after sitting for so long.

I have found a shop, not a dealer, where they are willing to tear down the engine and go through it and the transmission very thoroughly, flushing out every bit of metal that may still be in it. They've quoted me $1500 to remove the engine and put it back after they're done; and $7-8K as a worse case repair that requires machine work. They said that if it requires machine work, the expense goes up quickly. If no machine work is needed, then the bill would be less.

So my question is... What is the most likely engine component that has been damaged in this case? Am I naive to think that just because I only rode it 10 miles and the noise isn't that bad, it will be a simple inexpensive repair; or is the worse case scenario still most likely? Should I scrap the engine and try to buy one off eBay from a wrecked Spyder? That was my first thought after the dealer gave me the news, but if I have it rebuilt by this shop, at least I'll know what I have, rather than the unknowns of a wrecked engine implant. Also, having it rebuilt by the shop opens up the door for installing aftermarket performance parts, like higher compression pistons etc in a way that wouldn't add any additional cost if they have to be replaced anyway. This shop also tells me that they can do a custom tune if I want them to.

I welcome and appreciate your thoughts/advice/comments. Thank you for reading this long post!

 

[Mikey]

I for one find it hard to believe that a short block for that bike is that much! And if you go out and look at the way they break down the prices of the motor, they have it so fragmented into different parts that you can't see how they break it out! If your oil pump grenaded and the engine didn't get oil for 10 miles, you most likely took out your whole bottom end; crank, bearings, then your top end, etc! So basically, you need a whole short block; that would be the only way to make sure it would hold up down the road! The hard part is that without a motor, what do you have other than a bunch of used parts that could be sold on the web. Sorry!!!

 

[Z71Jamz]

I for one find it hard to believe that a short block for that bike is that much! And if you go out and look at the way they break down the prices of the motor, they have it so fragmented into different parts that you can't see how they break it out! If your oil pump grenaded and the engine didn't get oil for 10 miles, you most likely took out your whole bottom end; crank, bearings, then your top end, etc! So basically, you need a whole short block; that would be the only way to make sure it would hold up down the road! The hard part is that without a motor, what do you have other than a bunch of used parts that could be sold on the web. Sorry!!!

Thank you for your response Mikey. I didn't clarify with the dealer due to "sticker shock," but my research suggests that the $12k doesn't buy a short block, but rather, a complete engine assembly. The part number quoted from the dealer is 321403217 which is depicted by the picture I am attaching to this post.

Also just for reference because I just realized I left it out. I purchased the F3S with approximately 3700 miles on the odometer and put 7000 miles on it myself in around 10 months before the oil pump failed with 10,700 miles on the odometer. I include this to depict how young the engine really is which may or may not make rebuilding it more desireable than replacing it. I have to say that I am not thrilled with my Spyder experience. I found this forum shortly after the idea of purchasing one was in my mind and in general, everyone says that they are very solid bikes so I am bummed out to have been dealt this hand. Alas, it is what it is.

 

[BajaRon]

I would check valve clearance. If that is your noise, then check the cam lobe on that valve.

 

[CopperSpyder]

Sorry to hear about your Spyder. My thoughts are you are in a no-win situation. If it takes 8K to fix your Spyder it maybe just fine after that, but will you trust it? For 13.5K you could have a new leftover 2023 F3 with 2 year warranty. Trade in would be little, but something. So I would look at new and probable go that way. It is a tough situation your in. https://www.imotorsportsinc.com/def...#page=xNewInventory&p=4&sq=spyder&make=can-am they offer free shipping to you and they take trade ins or https://www.motomemberpa.com/defaul...ubcategory=3-wheel motorcycle&sortby=Year|asc this is one of the dealers near me for a refence to prices for leftover Spyders near you. Sometime you can get a deal on FB marketplace on newer Spyders locally with warranty. Lots of options new, used, fix, my head hurts thinking about it. Best of Luck with whatever way you go.

 

[T.P.]

You're getting into the area of cost to repair being more than the value of your 10 year old Spyder.
That's a tuff one for sure, Good Luck.
T.P.

 

[Mikey]

10700 miles is just getting broke in! With the right TLC that could spin 100,000 plus! But, not knowing how far the damage is would be a big factor in it. And like Copper said, you have to look at the big picture, how much is too much, and cut your loses! And like Ron said also, it may be in the valve train!! Hard telling not knowing!! Is the noise high, or low sounding?

 

[Z71Jamz]

I made a video of startup and running of it so you are able to hear for yourself. To my ears, it sounds worse today than the first time I started it after bringing it home from the dealer. What do you think?

Link to video on Youtube

 

[JayBros]

In a previous incarnation I sat in a court room where a customer was suing the company I worked for for a new automobile engine that had been serviced by one of the company's shops and self-destructed a few miles after leaving the shop and after the Check Engine came on. The judge asked the plaintiff what she did after the Check Engine light came on. The plaintiff said, "I drove on home." The judge said two words, "You lose."

If you started and engine that you knew had a problem so you could make a video of the sound that you say was worse than when you brought it home from the dealer, IMO you added incest to insult to injury. I agree with Mikey; it's time to cut your losses.

 

[Cobranut]

I for one find it hard to believe that a short block for that bike is that much! And if you go out and look at the way they break down the prices of the motor, they have it so fragmented into different parts that you can't see how they break it out! If your oil pump grenaded and the engine didn't get oil for 10 miles, you most likely took out your whole bottom end; crank, bearings, then your top end, etc! So basically, you need a whole short block; that would be the only way to make sure it would hold up down the road! The hard part is that without a motor, what do you have other than a bunch of used parts that could be sold on the web. Sorry!!!

Driving that far without oil pressure most certainly damaged the top end, as well as the bottom.
A short block is a motor without heads. He needs a long block or a complete motor.

 

[Cobranut]

In a previous incarnation I sat in a court room where a customer was suing the company I worked for for a new automobile engine that had been serviced by one of the company's shops and self-destructed a few miles after leaving the shop and after the Check Engine came on. The judge asked the plaintiff what she did after the Check Engine light came on. The plaintiff said, "I drove on home." The judge said two words, "You lose."

If you started and engine that you knew had a problem so you could make a video of the sound that you say was worse than when you brought it home from the dealer, IMO you added incest to insult to injury. I agree with Mikey; it's time to cut your losses.

I disagree with that judge. The "Check Engine" light is not an indication of catastrophic failure like the low oil pressure or high temp light is.
Check Engine usually means something related to emissions has a problem, and isn't necessarily a reason to stop driving immediately, especially if there are no unusual noises or running problems.
I do agree with you about driving with low oil pressure, and running the engine to record the noise.

 

[pegasus1300]

If you can find a good used engine on ebay will your independent shop do the swap for you.? I have seen proportadly good engines on ebay for $1500 to $3000. Some have videos of the engine running. Worth a look even if you don't go that route.

 

[pauly1]

I worked on Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki motorcycles (a long time ago). When oil pressure failures occurred due to pump failure, filter blockage, gasket failures, etc., a lot of damage can happen in a short time period. They were all overhead cam engines: the camshaft and lifters were assuredly ruined from lack of lubrication. The lack of lubrication caused galling and abrasion, putting lots of metal debris into the remaining oil, dependent on how long it took for the failure, a catastrophic break vs slowly choking off the oil flow. The remaining oil also serves the transmission. Every bearing and wear surface would need to be inspected for damage. Like someone suggested, finding an engine out of an accident-damaged/totaled F3 or RT may be a better option, if one can validate the engine prior to the swap. That engine change may require a title update, dependent on your licensing state, as often the engine and frame serial number are used for identification.

 

[Mikey]

I had a Yamaha four-wheeler burn a cam shaft one time. The shop just opened the engine up, threw in a new cam, and shot it out the door! I took it home and was working in the dooryard picking up grass and leaves, didn't go more than a mile total, back and forth in the yard, not ripping it, just idled, and took another one out. Took it back to the shop; the owner knew what was wrong before I even took it off the truck! The kid that did the work didn't break it down enough to find the little piece of metal in one of the oil passages that was blocking the oil to lube the cam. That cam was on them! So yes, it can happen very quickly!

 

[mn.roadking]

Had same thing happen at about 12k miles. Fiber pump gear failed. Found out that this isn’t uncommon. I would buy a used motor and before putting it on the road, replace the oil pump gears. Easy job costing around $60 plus oil. That is now part of my 10K service.

 

[Cobranut]

Had same thing happen at about 12k miles. Fiber pump gear failed. Found out that this isn’t uncommon. I would buy a used motor and before putting it on the road, replace the oil pump gears. Easy job costing around $60 plus oil. That is now part of my 10K service.

What oil were you running when you had the failure?