F3 Front Sprocket Inspection

[jcthorne]

Got my Spyder back today after having the sprocket replaced. Old part # was 2131. New part # on work order is 2134. But when I pulled the cover to check there were no numbers on the sprocket. Just an X on the edge at 180 degrees and one at 360 degrees.

Your dealer installed the pulley backwards. The Xes indicate not this side out. Take it back. Soon.
Your dealer will need to order a new bolt and really should replace the pulley rather than reinstall a used one. Installing it once already wore/damaged the splines. I would insist on a new part or written warranty against failure.

 

[jcthorne]

Hate to ask, but could you give us an idea of tracking? After stopping from going forward, where is the belt on the front and the rear sprocket?

Dummy me, I don't know squat about didilly, but it seems that if the belt is not against the outer flange (like most of ours), with the pulley being installed the way it is on yours, it would seem there would be less angular pull on the front pulley. And, what causes the deterioration is when the coating is worn off the splines off the pulley and the iron underneath starts powdering, causing the red dust.

Installing the pulley backwards moves it outboard and places a larger moment arm on the shaft. Will make the spline wear worse, not better. Also if there were by chance a direction from BRP to install it backwards, opposite of the service manual, there would be a technical service bulletin published and there is not.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Installing the pulley backwards moves it outboard and places a larger moment arm on the shaft. Will make the spline wear worse, not better. Also if there were by chance a direction from BRP to install it backwards, opposite of the service manual, there would be a technical service bulletin published and there is not.

Thanks for clarifying!!

 

[TexasZ]

Just food for thought. Some of the Kawasaki motorcycles had a notorious problem with these same type of splines wearing on each other until they started chewing each other up with the same red powder residue showing up. The solution to the problem that eventually evolved was to use Moly 60, which has been replaced with the M-77 when assembling, and being renewed at each rear tire change. The Moly stopped the spline wear and the problem ended. That was over 7 years ago that the Moly 'fix' started being used and no problems with splines being chewed up has been reported since.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-OE...ash=item19fc4b5754:g:WAsAAOSwNSxU7OgC&vxp=mtr

 

[Road-Kill]

Just food for thought. Some of the Kawasaki motorcycles had a notorious problem with these same type of splines wearing on each other until they started chewing each other up with the same red powder residue showing up. The solution to the problem that eventually evolved was to use Moly 60, which has been replaced with the M-77 when assembling, and being renewed at each rear tire change. The Moly stopped the spline wear and the problem ended. That was over 7 years ago that the Moly 'fix' started being used and no problems with splines being chewed up has been reported since.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-OE...ash=item19fc4b5754:g:WAsAAOSwNSxU7OgC&vxp=mtr

Thats interesting because I used a similar goo on my tractor for the same reason and it worked like magic.
I'm also thinking "why" BRP is not using this to solve their spline issue? ....it might be an engineering taboo of theirs.
My tractor was geared for slow and heavy pulling, the Kawasaki (I'm assuming) fast so where does that leave the Spyder?
When I drop off my F3 this Thursday for my 18,000 mile service and sprocket replacement I will ask.
I might even buy this and give it to my dealer and see if he will add it before assembly.

 

[JKMSPYDER]

BACKWARDS SPROCKET

Yep, that looks like what happened. My thanks to this thread or I would not have thought to check my old sprocket for rust or the new sprocket for the part #. I am really disappointed in the dealer as they have been highly recommended by other members on this forum. I will call them on Tuesday and calmly explain the problem and go from there. I was able to drive my front wheels on ramps and check the underside. The flange on the inside of the sprocket is wider than the side with the X’s but there is not enough room to see any numbers on that side. Even though the Spyder rode fine on the 175 mile trip home, I wonder if I should ride it back to the dealer or have it towed. The belt is against the inside of the flange on the sprocket but the belt seems to be tracking OK. I am attaching photos.

 

[SpyderF3-s]

Second sprocket was install backwards!!!

This is the picture that my current dealer took of the second sprocket that failed. If you look closely there is no part number! That means that the first dealer installed the sprocket backwards!!:banghead::banghead: Thank you to the previous posts to bring this to my attention!! I will make sure that I check to make sure the current dealer has installed the sprocket correctly.

 

[JKMSPYDER]

BRP CARE

I just sent an email to BRP Care with photos of my front sprocket. I hope they will contact me before my dealer opens on Tuesday on whether it would be safe to ride it back or have it towed. I have also requested a new sprocket and bolt. I also suggested that they send out a bulletin to all dealers to install the sprocket with the part numbers facing outward. It would seem like common sense don't you think?

 

[cmarsala]

Sprocket

I just sent an email to BRP Care with photos of my front sprocket. I hope they will contact me before my dealer opens on Tuesday on whether it would be safe to ride it back or have it towed. I have also requested a new sprocket and bolt. I also suggested that they send out a bulletin to all dealers to install the sprocket with the part numbers facing outward. It would seem like common sense don't you think?

I've sent an email to BRP with
a list of people who have responded to me with this issue and as of today, I haven't heard anything back, not to say I won't but just a matter of when and what kind of BS story will I get. I'll pass along any info BRP sends to me.:doorag:

 

[cmarsala]

Sprocket install

This is the picture that my current dealer took of the second sprocket that failed. If you look closely there is no part number! That means that the first dealer installed the sprocket backwards!!:banghead::banghead: Thank you to the previous posts to bring this to my attention!! I will make sure that I check to make sure the current dealer has installed the sprocket correctly.
View attachment 155258

I just checked the Spyder F3 manual I have and it doesn't show which side goes out, just said to install exactly as it was removed, using new bolt and to torque to 92 lb ft. :dontknow::dontknow:
Lamont time for you to weigh in on the correct install if you have it, I'm sure you have books I don't have!:clap::clap::banghead::banghead:

 

[Roadster Renovations]

This is the picture that my current dealer took of the second sprocket that failed. If you look closely there is no part number! That means that the first dealer installed the sprocket backwards!!:banghead::banghead: Thank you to the previous posts to bring this to my attention!! I will make sure that I check to make sure the current dealer has installed the sprocket correctly.
View attachment 155258

Yep, that sure enough is on backwards!! Wow!

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Just food for thought. Some of the Kawasaki motorcycles had a notorious problem with these same type of splines wearing on each other until they started chewing each other up with the same red powder residue showing up. The solution to the problem that eventually evolved was to use Moly 60, which has been replaced with the M-77 when assembling, and being renewed at each rear tire change. The Moly stopped the spline wear and the problem ended. That was over 7 years ago that the Moly 'fix' started being used and no problems with splines being chewed up has been reported since.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-OE...ash=item19fc4b5754:g:WAsAAOSwNSxU7OgC&vxp=mtr

Lamont posted on Facebook about using Moly on the splines. That sounds like the way to go. However, we need to make sure that BRP will still warranty the sprockets if that is done. Doesn't sound right for two fixed parts, but if it worked for them, hopefully it will work for us.

 

[Freddy]

Moly is good stuff on splines but great CARE needs to be taken when applying it to ensure it does not get transferred to the flange faces and lubricate them, as that it is where the clamping force of the bolt is applied to ensure there is no relative movement (which is the cause of these failures) when torqued adequately.

 

[TexasZ]

Lamont posted on Facebook about using Moly on the splines. That sounds like the way to go. However, we need to make sure that BRP will still warranty the sprockets if that is done. Doesn't sound right for two fixed parts, but if it worked for them, hopefully it will work for us.

Since I'm a newer member here with very few posts I'm glad someone that has a reputation here for credible knowledge also mentioned using moly.

Just a side note: There are many products out there with a Moly content and labeled as such in their product names. The Moly 60, replaced now with the M-77 was specifically chosen because of it's higher concentration/content of Moly than the other products. It is also a 'paste' and has a high resistance to heat so it doesn't tend to liquidfy and seep out. I would strongly advise to specifically use the M-77 in this situation. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-OE...ash=item19fc4b5754:g:WAsAAOSwNSxU7OgC&vxp=mtr

 

[TexasZ]

Moly is good stuff on splines but great CARE needs to be taken when applying it to ensure it does not get transferred to the flange faces and lubricate them, as that it is where the clamping force of the bolt is applied to ensure there is no relative movement (which is the cause of these failures) when torqued adequately.

Thank you Freddy! I was more concerned about keeping the moly out of the bolt hole. LOL
To keep from getting any of the M-77 moly into the bolt hole I was going to put a piece of tape onto the end of the shaft. Then apply the moly to the splines on the sprocket only. That way when it is being installed all the excess moly will be pushed out the outer face side of the sprocket where the excess can be easily cleaned off. Then remove the tape and install and torque the new bolt.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

When I remember to do it, I am going to start taking the parking brake off and just barely pushing on the brake pedal (enough to trigger the BLS but not apply the brakes), then put the Spyder into gear. I have tried this several times and I have had the byke move a bit several times when it bangs into gear. I think the hard banging into gear is at least part of the problem, so letting the sprocket more a little bit when it takes gear can't hurt.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

I did some research on spline failures and there is a surprising amount of information. One thing that surprised me was that the "red Rust" is not only a sign of a soon to happen failure, it also quickens it into happening. From what I'm reading, spline wear is normal. Everything wears. What they are saying is that when the wear removes the protective coating, moisture can get in and creates rust. The rust is extremely harmful to the splines and can really shorten the life. So what about sealing the spline area?
I'm thinking that applying the moly lubricant on the splines of the pulley, then just before install applying a beard of RTV sealer around the shaft just about where the splines end and the pulley will seat. This will be sticky enough for a minute or so to stick to the pulley, making an inside seal. As someone else had mentioned, by applying the moly to just the pulley it would remove an excess as it slid on the shaft. Once installed, cleaning the outer area thoroughly will remove any excess moly, then apply a bead of RTV in the seam between the two parts. The last step would be to install and torque the bolt. The RTV will not cause any difference in the torque value and when done you will have completely airtight, waterproof, lubricated spline area that would also be sealed so that the moly couldn't get out. We use RTV in harmonic balancer applications in automotive all the time.
Removal would also not be an issue as the RTV is not that hard to remove.

Also, there was some talk about improper tempering of the material, but we have no control over that. IMHO this above procedure should give us the best chance of the splines lasting......

Anybody see any downside that I've missed?

 

[JKMSPYDER]

Why is the spline problem not affecting RT’s, ST’s and RS’s as much as the F3’s?

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Why is the spline problem not affecting RT’s, ST’s and RS’s as much as the F3’s?

Well, I said it was due to the larger sprocket and change in gear ratio, but that was shot down by someone :dontknow::dontknow::dontknow: so who knows. Maybe the F3 has so much less tupperwear that it lets more rain into the area.....

 

[Sarge707]

Took my bolt off and am confused about the pictures to follow- First shows Red powder- Next 3 shots with bolt out and after I sprayed some rust away with Sea Doo Lube it appears my sprocket is in amazing shape compared to others I have seen? There is No looseness between the splines and sprocket and Don.t worry about that bolt coming loose - It Took me a Big extension to even get it to come loose. The metal ring around the inside of the sprocket seems to still be good? My only concern would be the engine splines but if that's the case it would have to wait for spring. I could Not get it to budge even a little with a pry bar different ways? What do you think??

I,m thinking put the New Bolt on -Torque to 92- adjust belt and ride?