• There were many reasons for the change of the site software, the biggest was security. The age of the old software also meant no server updates for certain programs. There are many benefits to the new software, one of the biggest is the mobile functionality. Ill fix up some stuff in the coming days, we'll also try to get some of the old addons back or the data imported back into the site like the garage. To create a thread or to reply with a post is basically the same as it was in the prior software. The default style of the site is light colored, but i temporarily added a darker colored style, to change you can find a link at the bottom of the site.

Non laser alignment

WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Guys and girls-
I really appreciate all the responses. I especially liked "suitable for a farm tractor", "similar to using flint knifes for surgery", and "like using star charts for navigation".

Yes, I would use a vendor with laser alignment equipment, if they were available. No, $50 doesn't matter much to me either way. Highwayman, thank you for your response, Yes I am aware of the site showing shops using "Patented True Laser Track Alignment System".

In any case, I asked for some specific information on a particular point I am not absolutely clear on. I am pretty sure I know, but would like to verify. If no one knows, I'm fine with that - I'll figure it out. If someone does and wishes to share that would be gracious.
....WOW, you are one savvy Lady :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:...so I know you would appreciate this ...I made some custom brackets for my 2014 RT that changed the angle of the front shocks 16 degree's which increased the firmness by 18%....the ground clearance is up by only 3/16 inch....It now handles much better and the springs still have Full compliance ...............It doesn't handle at all like a " farm tractor " :roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:.......Mike :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
To answer your specific question, the recommended laser alignment spec is 1.25 inches over 150" measuring distance. This is 0.125 across the 15" wheel. Approx 3mm total toe. More for the weight you are expecting to carry (400+ lbs).

Trouble with the yardsticks and pencil method is trying to measure fractions of a mm. Just not going to happen with any accuracy nor is it properly referenced to the rear wheel / steering center.
Bless you. You're actually addressing my question:yes: The first in 10+ posts.

The phrasing you are using is exactly what has me stalled. Hopefully you can rephrase and help me out.

"This is 0.125" across the 15" wheel. Approx 3mm total toe." It is the word "total" that stalls me

Yes, 0.125" is very close to 3mm. So, if the toe is set to 3mm, and one were to accurately measure between the wheels, front and back, one would see a difference of 6mm or 3mm?

I'm thinking, if the toe is 3mm, that means each wheel is toed in 3mm as measured to the vehicle centerline. So between the wheels, front to back, one would see a difference of 6mm.

Is this correct?

Note to the bad idea posters:
No, I'm not planning on using two yard sticks. No, I'm not planning on using a 5' internal mike. I'm looking for a definition.
 
Too much "nutzies and boltzies" here! Get the thing Lazer Aligned and get on with your life. Your a typical engineer Carl. And Annette you look "just marvelous" on that Spyder. Life is to short to start worrying about mm. :joke: Call Ann and Joe.

Jack
 
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Too much "nutzies and boltzies" here! Get the thing Lazer Aligned and get on with your life. Your a typical engineer Carl. And Annette you look "just marvelous" on that Spyder. Life is to short to start working about mm. :joke: Call Ann and Joe.

Jack
Each sentence in order:
possibly, and yes I am a Nutz and Balts kind of a guy
as soon as available
yes, and a good one, automotive steering design not my speciality
yes I agree. You obviously have good taste
not worried, just an inquiring mind
next time I think they are within a couple a hundred miles, I likely will

tkx

carl
 
Many years ago when I was in the front end biz the toe in was generally 1/8 inch total for bias ply tires and usually 0 toe in for radials. When I got the spyder it was very obvious that the dealer had not checked it like I asked so when I got it home I fabricated a fixture to measure and set the toe in. I checked it with the steering set straight ahead and I set it to 1/8 inch or .125 total toe in and it handles just fine with no abnormal tire wear.
I'm not saying the laser isn't a good way to go but the measurement is the same no matter what you use to measure it. Using the rear wheel for reference is fine until the rear wheel position is changed and I don't want to buy an alignment every time the rear wheel is moved.
All this being said I am going to get the laser job in the spring just to see how it compares with my manual method.;)
 
'Total Toe' generally refers to the total of left & right toe, so it's for BOTH, not just per side. There are a few instances (usually on a race track or already 'damaged' vehicle) where the side to side values may need to be different in order to give you the same Total Toe for straight tracking & good handling - your Spyder won't be one of them!!

Good Luck! :thumbup:
 
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ALIGNMENT

What Paul ( PMK ) said. And He's a suspension expert .....imho anyway :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: ......Mike :yes:
 
These topics on alignment are getting to be as good as oil topics and tire topics.

As Jack stated...do not over think it and get it properly aligned.

Anyone that thinks a Spyder steering geometry is closely resembling a performance design or even a good design needs to be drug tested.

The design is not at all like any car. A car modern car with IFS could never be sold with a design like the Spyders. If you have a look, notice haw far inboard the tie rod ends are. There are no idler arms, or a long steering rack to properly position the inboard tie rod end to minimize bump steer.

Sadly, bump steer happens 100% of the time as you ride. Even going straight. One spec for every rider will not give a perfect alignment, but it sure is close enough. Make a corner and the vehicle leans, the steering bellcrank adds Ackerman Effect. Regardless, none of it is ideal.

Add fuel, add or remove luggage, change rider weight, the toe setting is changed.

Accelerate and the wheels toe in, hit the brakes they toe out. Hit a bump and one wheel toes out.

The front wheels are wagging like a dogs tail.

Can Am has provided a toe chart and there are certain baseline settings. One is proper ride height measured at a certain point. Second is, the toe is set to a parameter based on the vehicles load.

Is the laser setup more accurate, done correctly it better be. You are projecting the a long ways in front of the vehicle making it easy to see small increments. Can you obtain adequate results measuring with toe sticks at the tires, yes.

Regardless of the method, ideally, with the vehicle loaded, the toe should be 0 according to Can Am. Sadly, this may be less than ideal if you ride a lot of curves where body lean will create toe out and make the vehicle more unpredictable.

Take it to someone that does alignments, has experience, and stands by their work.

PK

Amen ! Having setup plenty of racecars you nailed it! I'm surprised no one has developed adjustable caster, camber and bump steer for these things. Looks like all you can do is toe unless I'm missing something. My other issue is every race car I've set up we had the driver with all of his gear sitting in the seat yet it seems as though the people doing the alignments are doing it unloaded? I have to wonder how much it changes between loaded and unloaded? Thoughts from a Spyder New Guy.
 
Too much "nutzies and boltzies" here! Get the thing Lazer Aligned and get on with your life. Your a typical engineer Carl. And Annette you look "just marvelous" on that Spyder. Life is to short to start working about mm. :joke: Call Ann and Joe.

Jack


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One point I didn't cover, concerning the sway bar. All the following is just my opinion.
Spyder steering geometry is not different than that used in autos for the last 60+ years. There are no special physics involved.

Yes, adding the aftermarket sway bar will not change the STATIC alignment.

However, alignment changes with suppension deflection. Acceleration tends to toe out. Loading affects toe. Body roll affects toe. Bump steer affects toe.

Using a phrase from spydercomfort's page, I am working to mitigate "wandering or darting". And, of course, suspension deflection control as well as static alignment are the important issues.

One of the things I'm looking at doing is showing up for the static alignment with 7ea - 60 lb sandbags. I want the suppension set up for 2up, 20 lbs gear. If the vendor doesn't mind taking the time, I'd like to see the changes in static alignment due to loading. There is one guy (Australia) that says it can. I like his site. He has about the best information so far.

You are exactly right that body lean and loading will affect suspension deflection and thus alignment. This is one advantage of the sway bar upgrade. Less lean means a lot more than just a better feel. It means your alignment stays closer to ideal and gives you better tracking around corners. The harder/faster the corner, the more improvement you get.

An alignment is done at a certain ride height. Change ride height and you change suspension geometry and alignment. But this goes both ways.

If you get the alignment done fully loaded and 2-up, then you may be wandering around when lightly loaded, 1-up. There is a better way to approach the problem of weight distribution and loading changes throwing your alignment off the mark regardless of how your Syder is loaded. And that is to maintain the original ride height by making the front suspension adjustable.

So, you get your uber laser alignment done at a certain ride height (preferably lightly loaded, 1-up). Measure the ride height at the front. Then load your Spyder down as much as you like! Because you can bring everything back to the original geometry with the coil spring adjusters. Not only will this give you a lot more front ground clearance when loaded. But also a better, more controlled and stable ride. Especially in cross winds or when cornering.

Of course when you get where you're going and dump all that baggage into the hotel room. You back off your adjusters to give you a nice smooth ride while still maintaining the original ride height and front end geometry.
 
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The passenger has more effect on the headlight aim than front suspension and toe in when going straight.

PK

True. Admittedly there are a lot of variables. But there is also a fair amount of leeway.

But usually, you are not just putting a 2nd rider on the Spyder without loading the frunk. And you have the air adjust on most Spyders to compensate for additional weight in the rear.
 
Bless you. You're actually addressing my question:yes: The first in 10+ posts.

The phrasing you are using is exactly what has me stalled. Hopefully you can rephrase and help me out.

"This is 0.125" across the 15" wheel. Approx 3mm total toe." It is the word "total" that stalls me

It would be 1.5mm on each wheel. Still have no idea how you plan to measure this with any degree of accuracy.
 
Ouch...I've always objected to getting screwed without a kiss...

OK, I called one of the local dealers to price the Outlaw Laser Alignment and they quoted me $185 to do it!!! Just sounds "Extreme"ly high compared to what I've been reading and seeing on SL's.

Should I do it?

Next, the cost to install the Baja Ron sway bar would be $195 or 1.5-hours of time (based on the tech). That's $130/hour for labor...that too sounds high.

Should I just work on figuring out a way to elevate/lift the spyder and install it myself?

And I am solution oriented (and snowed in from Spyder ryding..so SL and maps get my free time {warning I have lots of it!!}....so here you go...plan on attending Spyderfest 2016...contact Ann & Joe Meyer of Squared Away and schedule now to get the laser alignment...they are the best and they are #1 IMHO and will be busy busy at SF...Also get them or Spyderpops to put on that BajaRon Swaybar...2 musts to ramp up the enjoyment of ryding...Merry Christmas and Santa is for real. I BELIEVE...:thumbup::thumbup:
 
It would be 1.5mm on each wheel. Still have no idea how you plan to measure this with any degree of accuracy.
jc -
Thanks for your response.
Please believe me: How I would measure this or if I am planning to measure this, was never part of my discussion. I am simply seeking a clear understanding of published specs. Apparently (to me anyway) I did not do very well expressing this.

Considering I have spent the last 50 years dealing with all things mechanical and electrical, I am rarely this dense. Yes, sometimes I am, but rarely.

Yes, from your previous post, I was (still am) pretty certain I could translate too: With steering centered, 1.5mm toe in, as measured across each 15" wheel to a vehicle centerline, giving 3mm total when measured clear across between the wheels.

Here is the part where I do not have a clear understanding.
For published specs, not casual conversation, for example, Brp 0 - .5mm, or others that do alignments saying 1.5mm - 3mm; is this measured across each wheel to a vehicle centerline?

Yes, I understand this "vehicle centerline" is a mythical math construct. I couldn't think of any better way to describe the measurement.

I know this is way too long. I'm trying to be accurate about what I'm looking to learn.
 
:agree: or Harvey (Spyderpops) or Ann (Squared Away alignments)

They have done hundreds of these and can answer any of your questions.

Cruzr Joe
Joe and the others that recommended I call someone that does alignments:
Yes, I figured out that asking here hasn't worked so far.

For all those that have suggested/recommended getting an alignment done by a competent vendor:
I will gently say, that wasn't the question. However, yes, that will likely be my plan - if/when it becomes available. My comments in the op about the local vendor and a mechanical alignment were in response to a previous thread where a poster suggested I contact the local vendor.
 
OK

jc -
Thanks for your response.
Please believe me: How I would measure this or if I am planning to measure this, was never part of my discussion. I am simply seeking a clear understanding of published specs. Apparently (to me anyway) I did not do very well expressing this.

Considering I have spent the last 50 years dealing with all things mechanical and electrical, I am rarely this dense. Yes, sometimes I am, but rarely.

Yes, from your previous post, I was (still am) pretty certain I could translate too: With steering centered, 1.5mm toe in, as measured across each 15" wheel to a vehicle centerline, giving 3mm total when measured clear across between the wheels.

Here is the part where I do not have a clear understanding.
For published specs, not casual conversation, for example, Brp 0 - .5mm, or others that do alignments saying 1.5mm - 3mm; is this measured across each wheel to a vehicle centerline?

Yes, I understand this "vehicle centerline" is a mythical math construct. I couldn't think of any better way to describe the measurement.

I know this is way too long. I'm trying to be accurate about what I'm looking to learn.
:bdh:....................CONTACT.....BRP.....FOR .....:helpsmilie:
 
jc -
Thanks for your response.
Please believe me: How I would measure this or if I am planning to measure this, was never part of my discussion. I am simply seeking a clear understanding of published specs. Apparently (to me anyway) I did not do very well expressing this.

Considering I have spent the last 50 years dealing with all things mechanical and electrical, I am rarely this dense. Yes, sometimes I am, but rarely.

Yes, from your previous post, I was (still am) pretty certain I could translate too: With steering centered, 1.5mm toe in, as measured across each 15" wheel to a vehicle centerline, giving 3mm total when measured clear across between the wheels.

Here is the part where I do not have a clear understanding.
For published specs, not casual conversation, for example, Brp 0 - .5mm, or others that do alignments saying 1.5mm - 3mm; is this measured across each wheel to a vehicle centerline?

Yes, I understand this "vehicle centerline" is a mythical math construct. I couldn't think of any better way to describe the measurement.

I know this is way too long. I'm trying to be accurate about what I'm looking to learn.

'Vehicle Centerline' is really the foundational crux of the matter. BRP uses the frame. But this proves to be a difficult and error prone method. Having done a few I would say it is near impossible to get an accurate alignment this way.

The reason is, you're not riding the frame. Laser alignments use the rear tire as 'Centerline'. This bypasses any anomalies in the frame/suspension and allows for a much higher degree of accuracy on a vehicle that is very sensitive to alignment. There is more to a laser alignment than this, of course. But starting at the right point is a big step toward ending up with the right adjustment.
 
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