Something May Be Coming Down the Spyder Pike!

[BajaRon]

Yes I tried a 14mm bar that my husband had made here in Australia for me, and I tested it on both soft and hard, the Hard was fine around town, I weigh 65kg and stand 4'13" tall, but once I hit the highway the 14 (hubby asked did you take in to account the paint thickness? .3mm?) tends to want to drag me wide similar to the OEM bar but nowhere near as bad!
The 15 is stable even towing our trailer, My hubby has been working together with the manufacturer to make sure the bar works effectively on the Spyder, my friend Lynn has a EvoBar on her 08 and she looks as comfortable as I feel, but she has had her spyder atleast a year longer than me!
Another friend (and Lady Rider) is going test the 15 on her 2011 RSs next week!

1st take on the RT bar is good, but after talking to Wtwing, hubby has asked for some minor changes, so the RT bar is still coming and he hopes to release it by the end of April!

Julie

PS road speed limits in Australia 50-60kph around town
80-100kph single lane highway (130kph in the Northern Territory)
100-130kph multiple lane highway

In English 100kph = 62.5mph

14.3 mm is the bar thickness before paint (or powdercoat in this case). What I would like to know are the characterists of the 15mm bar on the Spyder as it reaches the limits of traction and stability. It is possible to have too much of a good thing.

With the (we will call it the 14mm bar) this edge is reached in a manageable way. Everything begins to lose traction at the same time and by the same amount. You can feel it coming and loss of traction (control) is quite manageable. As a sway bar gets stiffer it will resist centrifugal force longer, giving you better cornering characterists and allowing you to go faster through turns. The problem comes as you reach the limits of the machine. If the bar is too stiff you will get less warning, things will happen more abruptly with more severe results.

What you're looking for is the best of both worlds. Improved resistance to centrifugal force with manageable edge characterists. Of course 'Manageable' depends on your skill level and other things like quality of shocks, road and tire conditions.

With the stock sway bar you lose control over the front end first (raising the inside tire) while the rear tire still has plenty of traction. Because this happens long before any traction issues are encountered it gives the novice rider plenty of warning and plenty of time to react (also, the Nanny kicks in sooner which also gives a greater degree of manageablity).

A stiffer sway bar converts that inside tire lift energy to increased front wheel traction. Both front tires stay in contact with the pavment longer, the center of gravity is kept lower, the Nanny is happier, stability is increased and your ability to go around curves is greatly enhanced. But you can only go so far with this. You do not want to reach the limits of the system suddenly. You want some early signs and enough wiggle room to make corrections.

Obviously, increased control is what you're looking for. But it is important that the sway bar give you this in all conditions. The 15mm bar may well be the way to go. But I would not want to sacrifice control at the edge for additional performance at lower speeds.

 

[Cavman]

JTF, is 4'13" tall. Is that the same as 5'1" tall?

 

[NancysToy]

.....You do not want the front end traction to exceed rear wheel traction. It is much better for the front to give way first rather than the rear. .....

I have to argue with you on this one, Ron. "Loose" or oversteer, is usually more controllable than "tight" or understeer as far as I am concerned. Maybe that's because losing rear end traction is pretty natural for those of us that grew up in snow country with rear wheel drive vehicles? Or maybe it's just the "drifter" in me? In reality, the only real solution is balanced handling. That's what we need to strive for.

 

[Bootie]

Steering

I have to argue with you on this one, Ron. "Loose" or oversteer, is usually more controllable than "tight" or understeer as far as I am concerned. Maybe that's because losing rear end traction is pretty natural for those of us that grew up in snow country with rear wheel drive vehicles? Or maybe it's just the "drifter" in me? In reality, the only real solution is balanced handling. That's what we need to strive for.

:agree: with Scotty on this one. I would much prefer the rear to break loose rather than the front.

 

[BajaRon]

I have to argue with you on this one, Ron. "Loose" or oversteer, is usually more controllable than "tight" or understeer as far as I am concerned. Maybe that's because losing rear end traction is pretty natural for those of us that grew up in snow country with rear wheel drive vehicles? Or maybe it's just the "drifter" in me? In reality, the only real solution is balanced handling. That's what we need to strive for.

You are right, got my wires crossed on that one and I changed the post. What I was trying go get at was the stiffer the sway bar, the later and more severe the results when traction does fail.

I have ridden the current sway bar to and just beyond its limits so I am comfortable with what occurs when I get there. I am not saying a stiffer sway bar is not a good idea. But I am not sure how much stiffer you can go and still push it to the edge safely.

Thanks for pointing out my error Scotty!

 

[NancysToy]

You are right, got my wires crossed on that one and I changed the post. What I was trying go get at was the stiffer the sway bar, the later and more severe the results when traction does fail.

I have ridden the current sway bar to and just beyond its limits so I am comfortable with what occurs when I get there. I am not saying a stiffer sway bar is not a good idea. But I am not sure how much stiffer you can go and still push it to the edge safely.

Thanks for pointing out my error Scotty!

I sure can't fault you for your comments on such mods pushing you closer to the edge, and often making the reaction both sudden and more severe, if the limits are exceeded. I think BRP took the right approach with their conservative design and the nanny to keep riders within bounds. Their target demographic definitely benefits from this conservative approach. I also think they are justifiably concerned about what happens when aftermarket shocks, swaybars, or different tires are fitted, and make the sensors less sensitive. If all Miss Nanny does is say "Oh, sh**! for you, what good is she? This is where a performance edition with an adjustable VSS might be nice...but don't look for it soon. JMHO

 

[BajaRon]

Ok Ron, this is the Hubby, Call me Rabbit everyone else does!

I would prefer the arse end to scream while I steer, an experienced rider will control their bike to the best of their ability! And if the front gives way first you have a lot of problem!!!!, you can control wheel spin!, it is very hard to control over-steer & under-steer and the front-end sliding!

True, I did get off course with that comment, as I posted in reply to Scotty as well. So, point agreed.

.... if you feel that you are unstable in the corners and want to control it, regardless of the SIZE! an aftermarket swaybar will help! !

True, to a point. But the size of the sway bar does matter. That is why they are engineered. Otherwise everyone would simply bolt up the biggest bar they could shove in the space.

We are all modifying these bikes to suit ourselves, YOU like the characteristics of the 14mm (Evolusione) bar on the hard setting, my wife prefers the soft setting of the 15mm bar

I do like the bar I am using now but I have only the OEM bar to compare it to. I am not sure why they gave it a lighter setting option as it seems to be really good on the stiffer setting. When I first started riding with the new bar the difference was astounding. I was able to ride it so much harder that I was actually leary of trying to push it to the limit as I was concerned that the break point could be dangerous. Turns out I was wrong but the question is, how much further can you go and still get a safe break point.

if you would like to pay the cost price of our 15mm bar plus shipping to you for testing, I am happy to do so & I will pay the return shipping when you have finished testing it!

I appreciate the proposal, very gracious. I wish I had the time but I many not even be able to go to Spyderfest this year. I am sure there is a few good riders here that would be more than happy to take you up on this offer.

Oh BTW "But I would not want to sacrifice control at the edge for additional performance at lower speeds" Please Explain?

Every system has its limit. With the Spyder (and any more than 2 wheeled vehicle) only one of 2 things can happen when this limit is reached. Loss of traction (slide) or rolling the vehicle (or both). Obviously, loss of traction is the much preferred result as that is usually manageable depending on the severity. And we agree that losing traction at the rear wheel is usually the most manageable.

There are degrees in amount of traction loss and the abruptness of its onset. On 2 wheels if you lose traction in a corner it is usually abrupt and catestrophic and you go down. This can happen without warning, otherwise you would do something to avoid it.

I know you can't compare 2 wheels to our 3, but a too stiff sway bar may work in the same way. While giving you better handling in many situations it will take the vehicle closer to this edge of system failure (loss of traction in this case) with little or no warning that traction is about to be lost. When traction loss does occur it will probably be much more severe with less chance to recover.

I have no idea if a 15mm bar is too stiff. I am just asking if anyone has ridden an RS/GS/RS-S to a point where they would know.

 

[BajaRon]

I sure can't fault you for your comments on such mods pushing you closer to the edge, and often making the reaction both sudden and more severe, if the limits are exceeded. I think BRP took the right approach with their conservative design and the nanny to keep riders within bounds. Their target demographic definitely benefits from this conservative approach. I also think they are justifiably concerned about what happens when aftermarket shocks, swaybars, or different tires are fitted, and make the sensors less sensitive. If all Miss Nanny does is say "Oh, sh**! for you, what good is she? This is where a performance edition with an adjustable VSS might be nice...but don't look for it soon. JMHO

Very true. I also think that giving a new rider a wide margin of safety, even if the vehicle does not handle as well as it might, is a good idea. If the Spyder came off the showroom floor with maximum ability there would be many more in the ditch with people finding their limits the hard way.

One thing that impresses me about the spyder is that you hear about very few rider error accidents. With the ratio of 1st time (we'll call it motorcycle for sake of conversation) riders to have this high a safety record means BRP did something very right.

Anytime you improve handling, the machine will allow the rider to go faster in the same situation. Personally, I think this is a great improvement and gives me a great deal of enjoyment over the stock Spyder. But we also have to realize that we are riding closer to the edge of capablities (both machine and rider) with a smaller margin for error.

Still, the Spyder comes stock with what I consider a huge safety margin built in. That is why it is realitively simple to extract great improvements in handling. And again, not a thing against BRP here. They built our Spyders this way on purpose, for good reason.

 

[arntufun]

No comment on making the 02 Mod, Ron ???? Interesting. :roflblack::roflblack:

 

[BajaRon]

No comment on making the 02 Mod, Ron ???? Interesting. :roflblack::roflblack:

I intended to reply to this but got caught up in retractions of stupid statements and clarification of what I thought was a more defendable point.... So, uh, what was the question?... :dontknow:

It has crossed my mind to re-invent the O2 sensor. But after having done some research (mostly just looking for what users think about it) I am not sure I will. The customer satisfaction factor seems to be mixed at best. Most were very happy at first but long term have removed them. I could be wrong as the complaint syndrome may be skewing my research.

Personally, I have never been a fan of the O2 modifier approach. There is too much going on in the fuel mix system for a simple flat line alteration to do a good job in all situations. But if people want them and are going to be happy with the product it is something I'd consider producing. On the other hand, I'm not interested in a poor product regardless of the potential profit.

Right now I'm too busy trying to get to Spyderfest to mess with it anyway.

By the way, are you taking requests on your NY Spyder Rider picture? How about Betty Boop! Big improvement over the last few I've seen.

 

[NancysToy]

There is one more reason important for the use of sway bars (actually anti-sway bars) that deserves to be mentioned. When a vehicle experiences body roll the suspension geometry changes, and often the camber in the process. In effect, the two sides end up with differing geometries and alignments. This can change the steering characteristics in an unpleasant, dynamic, and unpredictable way. This was very noticeable on the 2010 RT, when it would decide to dive into a corner part way through, and need to be countersteered to correct...or even to stay on the road. A sway bar makes the vehicle corner flatter, keeping the suspension geometries of the two sides more uniform. A stiffer bar does this best, but can have other, unwanted effects. We come back to the balance issue, getting all the suspension components and adjustments to work in harmony...in a manner that works for that particular rider, road, and machine.

 

[MikeinGA]

I should have something in my hand after Spyderfest....And you won't need to pay shipping from Australia!

AND there only $5.00 each:roflblack:

Mike

 

[Sny]

Oversteer, or the rear end breaking free before the front, requires throttle control, often more throttle solves this condition (keeps you going the direction you want). More throttle when you lose traction is typically the last thing most drivers (note I said drivers) think about. The typical reaction is to let off the throttle, which in an oversteer condition, especially at higher speeds, results in even more oversteer and generally a spin. One thing I know from experience is that spyders don't spin. They flip, violently, when they exceed the ability of the VSS to compensate.

Understeer (also known as pushing or plowing into a turn) is the front end breaking free before the rear. It is best corrected in most situations by cutting power, which is the natural response of most non-performance drivers. The VSS handles this situation very well.

If either condition happens suddenly it can be very difficult to control, VSS or not. A rapid transfer of weight brought on by sudden steering input, sudden increase or decrease of power, sharp braking, or even a bump in the pavement, can all cause a quick transition from a stable corner to a loss of traction.

A soft, compliant suspension will soak up a rapid transfer and generally make the loss of traction occur slower and thus easier to compensate for.

A hard suspension can make the smallest loss of traction rapidly change to a major loss of control, faster than most people will react.

This is why in almost every case a stock suspension on any vehicle is fairly soft compared to what a professional desires.

That all said, I prefer a touch of oversteer to a touch of understeer... but my cars have always been set up to be close to neutral with a hint of understeer. You can always add traction to the front by tapping the brakes when going into a hard corner or dropping the throttle suddenly to cause weight transfer to the front.

So that all said...

On the spyder, you have more traction in the front than the rear already. A larger contact patch on the ground and a more complex suspension combined with an unequal weight distribution. In order to bring this closer to neutral you a pretty significant increase in traction in the rear, which a larger stiffer front sway bar will do. You can also lower the rear tire pressure a bit, or raise the front to help even more.

I doubt even the 15mm will be "too much" to cause oversteer (with the exception of power induced oversteer). And if it did, just increase the rear tire pressure until it slightly understeers again.

If any of this sounds interesting you'll love this chart: http://www.nyracer.com/overunder.htm

Almost all of it applies to the Spyder.

I would LOVE the 15mm bar... installed before Spyderfest even

 

[spyder stryder]

Oversteer, or the rear end breaking free before the front, requires throttle control, often more throttle solves this condition (keeps you going the direction you want). More throttle when you lose traction is typically the last thing most drivers (note I said drivers) think about. The typical reaction is to let off the throttle, which in an oversteer condition, especially at higher speeds, results in even more oversteer and generally a spin. One thing I know from experience is that spyders don't spin. They flip, violently, when they exceed the ability of the VSS to compensate.

Understeer (also known as pushing or plowing into a turn) is the front end breaking free before the rear. It is best corrected in most situations by cutting power, which is the natural response of most non-performance drivers. The VSS handles this situation very well.

If either condition happens suddenly it can be very difficult to control, VSS or not. A rapid transfer of weight brought on by sudden steering input, sudden increase or decrease of power, sharp braking, or even a bump in the pavement, can all cause a quick transition from a stable corner to a loss of traction.

A soft, compliant suspension will soak up a rapid transfer and generally make the loss of traction occur slower and thus easier to compensate for.

A hard suspension can make the smallest loss of traction rapidly change to a major loss of control, faster than most people will react.

This is why in almost every case a stock suspension on any vehicle is fairly soft compared to what a professional desires.

That all said, I prefer a touch of oversteer to a touch of understeer... but my cars have always been set up to be close to neutral with a hint of understeer. You can always add traction to the front by tapping the brakes when going into a hard corner or dropping the throttle suddenly to cause weight transfer to the front.

So that all said...

On the spyder, you have more traction in the front than the rear already. A larger contact patch on the ground and a more complex suspension combined with an unequal weight distribution. In order to bring this closer to neutral you a pretty significant increase in traction in the rear, which a larger stiffer front sway bar will do. You can also lower the rear tire pressure a bit, or raise the front to help even more.

I doubt even the 15mm will be "too much" to cause oversteer (with the exception of power induced oversteer). And if it did, just increase the rear tire pressure until it slightly understeers again.

If any of this sounds interesting you'll love this chart: http://www.nyracer.com/overunder.htm

Almost all of it applies to the Spyder.

I would LOVE the 15mm bar... installed before Spyderfest even

Check with baharon i think he can help you out.

spyder stryder

 

[spyder stryder]

Very true. I also think that giving a new rider a wide margin of safety, even if the vehicle does not handle as well as it might, is a good idea. If the Spyder came off the showroom floor with maximum ability there would be many more in the ditch with people finding their limits the hard way.

One thing that impresses me about the spyder is that you hear about very few rider error accidents. With the ratio of 1st time (we'll call it motorcycle for sake of conversation) riders to have this high a safety record means BRP did something very right.

Anytime you improve handling, the machine will allow the rider to go faster in the same situation. Personally, I think this is a great improvement and gives me a great deal of enjoyment over the stock Spyder. But we also have to realize that we are riding closer to the edge of capablities (both machine and rider) with a smaller margin for error.

Still, the Spyder comes stock with what I consider a huge safety margin built in. That is why it is realitively simple to extract great improvements in handling. And again, not a thing against BRP here. They built our Spyders this way on purpose, for good reason.

The posts that you,nancystoy (post #34 & sny (post #36) goes along with what i have
been saying all along on the bar & shock deal. No one thing is the magic fix it needs to
be a well balanced combo of the bar,spring & shock package. No matter who makes the
spring/shock combo (coilover unit) if you have the correct spring rate & shock valving
you will get good results.When you compare coilover units each must have the same rate
& valving to get a true result. Check the springs on a rater & the shocks on a dyno buckel
them up & have a good rider make a test run without knowing which set is on for each run.
Have a safe ride.
spyder stryder

 

[bone crusher]

14.3 mm is the bar thickness before paint (or powdercoat in this case). What I would like to know are the characterists of the 15mm bar on the Spyder as it reaches the limits of traction and stability. It is possible to have too much of a good thing.

With the (we will call it the 14mm bar) this edge is reached in a manageable way. Everything begins to lose traction at the same time and by the same amount. You can feel it coming and loss of traction (control) is quite manageable. As a sway bar gets stiffer it will resist centrifugal force longer, giving you better cornering characterists and allowing you to go faster through turns. The problem comes as you reach the limits of the machine. If the bar is too stiff you will get less warning, things will happen more abruptly with more severe results.

What you're looking for is the best of both worlds. Improved resistance to centrifugal force with manageable edge characterists. Of course 'Manageable' depends on your skill level and other things like quality of shocks, road and tire conditions.

With the stock sway bar you lose control over the front end first (raising the inside tire) while the rear tire still has plenty of traction. Because this happens long before any traction issues are encountered it gives the novice rider plenty of warning and plenty of time to react (also, the Nanny kicks in sooner which also gives a greater degree of manageablity).

A stiffer sway bar converts that inside tire lift energy to increased front wheel traction. Both front tires stay in contact with the pavment longer, the center of gravity is kept lower, the Nanny is happier, stability is increased and your ability to go around curves is greatly enhanced. But you can only go so far with this. You do not want to reach the limits of the system suddenly. You want some early signs and enough wiggle room to make corrections.

Obviously, increased control is what you're looking for. But it is important that the sway bar give you this in all conditions. The 15mm bar may well be the way to go. But I would not want to sacrifice control at the edge for additional performance at lower speeds.

Ron, keep it simple...how about a 14.5mm bar?

 

[bone crusher]

Very true. I also think that giving a new rider a wide margin of safety, even if the vehicle does not handle as well as it might, is a good idea. If the Spyder came off the showroom floor with maximum ability there would be many more in the ditch with people finding their limits the hard way.

One thing that impresses me about the spyder is that you hear about very few rider error accidents. With the ratio of 1st time (we'll call it motorcycle for sake of conversation) riders to have this high a safety record means BRP did something very right.

Anytime you improve handling, the machine will allow the rider to go faster in the same situation. Personally, I think this is a great improvement and gives me a great deal of enjoyment over the stock Spyder. But we also have to realize that we are riding closer to the edge of capablities (both machine and rider) with a smaller margin for error.

Still, the Spyder comes stock with what I consider a huge safety margin built in. That is why it is realitively simple to extract great improvements in handling. And again, not a thing against BRP here. They built our Spyders this way on purpose, for good reason.

Ron, if I recall properly, 30-40% of bike 'accidents' are single rider...dropping the bike...being the Spyder cannot be dropped (thank goodness), this already eliminates a lot of problems. As most 2 wheelers will joke about..it's not a matter of if they've dropped their bike..it's an issue of when...the Spyder gives us so many safety goodies and this is great...there are limits to what the Spyder can handle and I'm sure sooner or later, someone will modify their bike beyond its intended limits and end up adding to the 'accident' statistic.

 

[c3j3gable]

So...

So is there a stateside swaybar option now, or is www.wespydservices.com all we got?

 

[BajaRon]

So is there a stateside swaybar option now, or is www.wespydservices.com all we got?

I will have a 14.3 mm sway bar for the RS/GS/RS-S soon. Hopefully this month so people can get them on their rides before Durango. You'll need them in the twisties! I've got one small detail to run down and they will be ready to go. Time, it all boils down to time.

I'll say that researching Sway Bars (or as Scotty puts it, more accurately, Anti-Sway Bar) I thought I knew a fair amout about them. But there is much more to a sway bar than meets the eye.

For example, the front sway bar on our Spyder adds weight to the rear tire in a turn. The more aggressive the turn, the more weight is added to the rear tire. That is a real plus for the Spyder which on the RS/GS/RS-S is light in the rear.

 

[c3j3gable]

Sweeet

Thanks for the update, my RS-S and I are looking forward to it.