Opinions wanted - How I and the Dealer handled a service issue - long read warning

[broderp]

I had inquired a few weeks ago about the belt alignment on my Spyder during my service visit regarding the mirror recall. At that point, a technician looked at it and stated it was within .5mm to about 1mm from hitting the pulley flange. Since there was no rubbing or noise we decided to wait until the 3000-mile service to align the belt. There was no discussion on price and I assume since I bought it that way it would be covered by warranty. My Spyder had less than 100 miles on it at the time.

A few weeks later, rather than wait, I decided to have the belt service done sooner than later. So on my way to the dealer to get an oil change kit for my Spyder I decided to go ahead and schedule the belt service.

Here is the transcript of the conversation. (Long Read.) This is almost a word for word transcribe, so the grammar can be a bit tricky to follow and it is a fairly quick conversation that lasted only a few minutes. Intent, inflection and attitudes are hard to decipher in written communication.

Me: Along with that (the belt alignment) how much do you charge for an oil change? I just bought this (holding oil change kit) but if I’m going to be able to get it in that early, I may have you guys do it.

Dealer: (After confirming with technician) 1.3 hours for an F3 so that would be like $160.

Me: Is that the labor cost or the whole thing because I just literally bought this (oil kit) because but I wasn’t expecting to get in that quick.

Dealer: Yeah, um we can do it, um, you’re going to be here for a couple hours.

Me: Ok, so it will be $163 then?

Dealer: $160 for the oil change, the belt alignment…(looking over to tech) how much is the belt alignment on the Spyder? (Reply from technician .75.) So about $90.

Me: Um, Ok, well the belt alignment, because I bought it that way if you remember, I purchased it with the belt... (dealer cuts me off mid-sentence)

Dealer: But if that gets done, that gets done at the 3000 break-in service.

Me: It’s checked in for free if it’s out of alignment, I mean it gets adjusted for free?

Dealer: It’s not out of alignment that its bad enough that it needs to be done right away. When we check it and it’s not rubbing its not doing anything….(I cut him off)

Me: But it is out of spec though, it is out of spec.

Dealer: OK

Me: And so it was sold to me out of spec and that’s not a warranty issue that you guys would take care of is I guess what I want to get clarification on.

Dealer: Yeah and that’s what I thought we had initially figured we were going to wait on the service and do it then being that its not rubbing its not doing, its not harming anything it’s not bad. It’s not exactly perfect but it’s not damaging the belt or doing any damage.

Me: Ok. My concern today is that I am potentially moving, I’m taking the bike with me and I’m not going to be here for the 3000-mile service. And so, maybe I didn’t make it clear back then (when they inspected it during the recall work) but if I bring it in is that..(Dealer cut me off)

Dealer: Warranty won’t pay for that unless its, there’s an issue. (I cut him off)

Me: Out of spec is not an issue? I apologize, I am not trying to be argumentative.

Dealer: It’s not exactly what it is, its not doing any damage. It’s not.. (I cut him off)

Me: So it’s kind of “Buyer Beware”, I should have checked that before I bought it and made sure that was one of the things on the to do or…dealer cut me off as I was going to say “we owe list" at time of purchase.)

Dealer: We’ll go ahead and do it for you, I’ll eat that. I mean we have to eat that...

Me: No, um, maybe there’s a happy medium somewhere (I was feeling bad for the dealer) I know it’s not an issue now in fact it was like what, 1mm at one end like less than .5mm at the other end when your technician came out to measure it? (Referring to the belt to pulley gap. Spec is 1-5mm.) So it’s kind a right there in the middle…(Dealer cut me off)

Dealer: We’ll address it.

Me: Ok, alright then, well I appreciate that then. Thank you sir.

Dealer: Take care. (I then leave the service department.)

I’m just not happy with how this ended and wonder if I did something wrong? Was I too aggressive? Is the dealer in the wrong? Did I stand my ground to far/ too little or was pushy enough to get my way? I want to have a very good relationship with the dealer and plan on them helping me maintain my new Spyder (and Ryker) while under warranty as well as when it’s out of warranty. I also don’t want to be ripped off or taken advantage of.

 

[pegasus1300]

The dealer decided to adjust the belt. Let it go You will be happy, and he will be happy, to have served a customer who spent a lot of money in his store. You aren't hurting him financially or his feelings. You did just fine.

 

[AndysF3S]

It is what it is, time to move on. JMO

 

[racoon]

I’m just not happy with how this ended and wonder if I did something wrong? Was I too aggressive? Is the dealer in the wrong? Did I stand my ground to far/ too little or was pushy enough to get my way? I want to have a very good relationship with the dealer and plan on them helping me maintain my new Spyder (and Ryker) while under warranty as well as when it’s out of warranty. I also don’t want to be ripped off or taken advantage of.

My other vehicle is a Honda Ridgeline truck.

I was notified by American Honda Motor Corp that there was an issue with the wiring harness in the tailgate, and that they had issued a Technical Service Bulletin about the issue, and that I should check with my dealer on the availability of the new harness.
Basically the wiring wasn't properly insulated, and could corrode over time, which would cause the reverse camera to fail. Not a crash and burn problem, but still important.

So I dutifully called the service department of my local Honda dealer, which is where I bough the Ridgeline.
I mentioned the TSB number and that I had received a notice from Honda about it, and was calling to confirm the replacement wiring harness was available.
I was on hold for about 5 minutes, and the same person came back on the line, apologized for the delay, and said that they had the harness in stock.

Now, I need to mention that the person I spoke to was a woman, not to say it was a gender issue, but as an explanation of what happened when I showed up for the appointment.

I had already scheduled an appointment for the next day through their website, so less than 24 hours after it was confirmed they had the part I showed up with my Ridgeline to have the work done.
I was greeted by a woman service writer when I pulled up and I said that I had an appointment. She told me to leave the key in my vehicle, and to follow her.

I followed her back to the check in desk and when she asked my name and I told her, without looking at me she said "Excuse me" and walked away.
I stood there for a minute or two before another person approached me and asked why I had come in.
I explained the TSB and that I had an appointment, he entered my information into the computer, and then frowned. At that time I was told that not only did they not have the part in stock, but that the computer was showing it was back ordered, and it was going to be at least a month before they received the parts.

A complaint to the service manager went no where, and I have never received an explanation or an apology.
And now Honda is saying they are having trouble manufacturing enough replacement parts, and that they are reserving the current stock for vehicles that actually have a camera failure, and it will probably be Spring 2025 before they will have enough parts to fix every vehicle. The problem includes all 2020 thru 2025 Honda Ridgelines. A quick look at some sales data suggests they're selling about 30,000 Ridgelines each year. So over 100,000 vehicles.

I still love my Ridgeline, just not the local Honda dealer as much.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

:agree: The belt should have been adjusted prior to delivery; but let me add - the whole drive belt alignment thing is blown way out of proportion. ... Mike :thumbup:

 

[FrogmanDave]

:agree: The belt should have been adjusted prior to delivery; but let me add - the whole drive belt alignment thing is blown way out of proportion. ... Mike :thumbup:

I completely agree with Mike. Plus (and I'm not sure I am reading the OP's comment correctly) you are talking about a discrepancy of .020"! Seriously?! I'm not sure I would have ever brought that up in the first place.

 

[Mikey]

If at any time you get off your bike and look down and it is riding hard on the pulley where you can't get a card or paper in there then yes, it's time to adjust in my book. And it will not take that much to get it right in most cases, 1/8, 1/4 turn and you're on your way.

 

[Peter Aawen]

:agree: The belt should have been adjusted prior to delivery; but let me add - the whole drive belt alignment thing is blown way out of proportion. ... Mike :thumbup:

:agree:

If at any time you get off your bike and look down and it is riding hard on the pulley where you can't get a card or paper in there then yes, it's time to adjust in my book. And it will not take that much to get it right in most cases, 1/8, 1/4 turn and you're on your way.

I wouldn't, certainly not just on one observation!! :gaah:

The reality of 'belt drives' are that ALL belts DO move around a little during use, and if you ever stop and see that the belt is hard up against the flange, my first reaction would be to check that it hasn't actually RIDDEN UP the flange at all (a quick glance at the toothed side of the belt will quickly reveal any damage that WILL have occurred if that's ever happened! Use your phone/camera to check if you can't get down/back up! ) and if you see no evidence of that, then DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF, just RIDE ON - at least for a few miles... if not the rest of the day, then have another look & check; and only ever adjust it if it's absofreakinlutely necessary!! :thumbup:

Chances are that if you ride on a bit and check later, the belt won't be so tight up against that flange on the second or third... or maybe the ninth look ( ) and if it's not so hard up against the flange on any subsequent look, just don't mess with it!! nojoke

Sure, if you feel the need, you maybe could get all anal about making sure it's exactly correct while you are actually in the process of adjusting things, but it's almost certain that once you start riding again, the belt will immediately start to 'walk' on the pulley a little during use, and the only real reason for that prescribed 'credit card' gap when you're initially setting up the Spyder's belt & tension etc, OR if you're replacing the wheel after it's been off, is to allow a little room for the belt to safely 'walk' a little (as they do!) without riding off the outside edge or up the inside pulley flange & damaging the teeth on the belt once you do actually start riding!! BUT, there is ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT that THE BELT WILL WALK AT LEAST A LITTLE on the pulley during use, even if it does 'appear' to you that it seems to be in the same place every time you check! And that's all certain without even considering how much it WILL move if you ever reverse up a little, and how long the 'perceived belt alignment' will take to recover from that little bit of 'walking'! :banghead:

All of which means that if your belt isn't running off the outside of the pulley or riding up on the inside flange (& not just 'rubbing' on it!! ) and it isn't actually ripping the crap out of the working/bearing surfaces on the teeth of the belt, then you can safely ride on! hyea:

This time, I'll add a little to my favourite saying, and suggest that you...


DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF, and then RIDE MORE, WORRY LESS! :2thumbs:

 

[Bfromla]

Dealer heard you maybe moving & maybe not their problem. One possibility as well as will not be a returning customer, too much left to your opinion on personal interactions with dealer as a whole. Yes belt was supposed to be showroom correct (not just within spec) before you were handed keys. Unfortunately other factors including whatever customer was before you & left whatever mood prior to your interaction. Belt is a valid concern however minor & especially on new to you vehicle. Question is: Are you gonna trust dealer & continue business or find new -explaining it all (or none) & start fresh? Opinion 3 new rear tire. …… good luck :thumbup:

 

[Mikey]

Peter, I think we are ALL on the same page on this one!

 

[WRCLVR]

IMHO you werent too pushy. They were clearly trying to push the belt alignment off even though they had said it was "out of spec". It appears to me that the SA got grumpy after you insisted it get done, which was already on their dime.

Kudos to you for standing up... I am 70 and have found the standard service approach stretching back as far as 20 years is to minimize issues, delay them or deny them as "not covered"... You gotta fight for your rights these days.

My local Toyota dealer is still ok, but Toyota overall in quality and service has definitely slipped over the past 10 years.

 

[shannonmarie]

It sounds like it’s a brand new bike. Anything wrong should be covered. If it wasn’t rubbing the dealer might not see it as urgently as you did. But they should have just fixed it under setup/warranty/whatever as it’s a brand-new bike.

I can see the dealer being a little salty about it since you’re probably moving and not going to be giving them any more business. But they still should have just fixed it on their own dime.

 

[Lew L]

My wife's Jag F-Pace S has been in the dealer's shop (the only dealer within 150miles) for a MONTH. We are beyond frustrated �� ��. They don't know what's wrong (lean condition on both banks of a supercharged V6) and they can't get the check engine light to stay off.
A MONTH....

 

[broderp]

I wanted to update my thread.

On 9/20/24 I took my Spyder back to the dealer for the scheduled appointment to properly get the belt aligned. The first thing I did after dismounting and walking up to the service desk was apologize for how our last interaction went. I offered to pay for the service because I didn't want them to have to "eat" the cost of the service as they previously told me. They refused and said they would cover it. I made one more offer then accepted they would take care of it.


The job quoted as 0.75 hours ($90). I was there for a few hours. Over an hour passed before they even started working on my Spyder, but OK as long as it was properly aligned and done right, I'll be patient.


They called me over to show me the alignment. The tech was able to get it... wait for it..... 1.5mm from the flange. nojoke He stated, "spec is 1-5mm" and he was right. He slowly rotated the tire 360 degrees and measured it at several places, and it indeed looked like it was very consistent. I can't argue with the specification ~ although I would have thought they would have stuck it out around 3-4mm to put it somewhere in the middle of the spec.

I went to sign any paperwork and was told there was nothing to sign, nor do I get a copy of anything for my records. I took a picture of the mileage for my records. I left the service department with exactly 1295.0 miles on the odometer. I was down to 30 miles range, so I made a pitstop to get gas then straight home. I wanted to get a few pictures of the belt alignment (I wish I had at the dealer) and was very shocked by what I saw.

It appears that the belt had moved back closer to the flange on the rear pully. I took several images and a short video.

Could rotating a wheel slowly versus not running it up to speed impact the tracking? The gap is back to where it was if not closer!

I have no confidence in this service department, not sure who else is in my area, but if there is no one then I am stuck with this level of service.

I'm about ready to do it myself, but am concerned with also having to deal with belt tension. I don't think I want the dealer to do it. Perhaps I should let it ride and when it starts to wear the belt out, then it will be a warranty issue, and I can try to enforce it being "more correct" than accepting the tech taking 5 minutes to tweak a bolt. My guess they did the minimal amount of work to avoid having to deal with belt tension.

What are the forums thoughts? Does the image look OK to you?

 

[Tango]

He's not a dealer, but in Ohio. Value Accessories. They ride Spyders and do install of accessories. I would call, maybe go see them. :thumbup: Tom :spyder:

 

[Woodaddict]

He's not a dealer, but in Ohio. Value Accessories. They ride Spyders and do install of accessories. I would call, maybe go see them. :thumbup: Tom :spyder:

Don't know your location BRODERP, just says OHIO. But he is in Madison, just on the other side of Ashtabula County where I'm from, in Lake county

 

[Mikey]

You have to remember that belt is going to drift back and forth as it wishes to a point! What you don't want is to get off the bike and see it hard one way of another! As long as you can see air between the flange and belt, you're good; what you don't want to see is it TIGHT against the flange! Every time you stop from a straight line it may look different, that's what it does! And NEVER judge your alignment after backing into anywhere, because that will just really blow your mind! If it's not touching and it's staying in the ballpark, Ride on and ride more, worry less!

 

[broderp]

Don't know your location BRODERP, just says OHIO. But he is in Madison, just on the other side of Ashtabula County where I'm from, in Lake county

Googled it. He is about 3 and a half hours from me. :sour:

You have to remember that belt is going to drift back and forth as it wishes to a point! What you don't want is to get off the bike and see it hard one way of another! As long as you can see air between the flange and belt, you're good; what you don't want to see is it TIGHT against the flange! Every time you stop from a straight line it may look different, that's what it does! And NEVER judge your alignment after backing into anywhere, because that will just really blow your mind! If it's not touching and it's staying in the ballpark, Ride on and ride more, worry less!

Assuming you are correct (and having dealt with similar alignment issues with pulleys with my job I know this to be true) then I would then expect to randomly see it further or closer to the flange. Thanks for the pointers. The dealer told me basically they it's not an issue unless they see wear marks on the belt or F3.

By "tight against the flange" I assume you mean literally riding up the flange or physically disfiguring due hitting the flange? The image I posted seems to show a gap, but you cannot get a feeler gauge in there to measure. I believe its an image illusion driven my how the flange and belt are made. Weather allowing, I will take it for a short spin and recheck for any movement.

I will also start my research on belt adjustment. The BRP Service Manual is good, but the devil is in the details and BRP is bad with those at times!


:cheers:

 

[Woodaddict]

.....
By "tight against the flange" I assume you mean literally riding up the flange or physically disfiguring due hitting the flange? The image I posted seems to show a gap, but you cannot get a feeler gauge in there to measure. I believe its an image illusion driven my how the flange and belt are made. Weather allowing, I will take it for a short spin and recheck for any movement.

I will also start my research on belt adjustment.

the sprocket edge has a slight angle to keep belt from riding UP. So the gap on top will be a smidge wider than down at the teeth. That is where the credit card gap should be checked. IF the belt is riding too hard on side flange, it will squeal!!!

 

[canamjhb]

The experiences you are having with your dealer are exactly the same as I experienced. Caused me to learn how to do it myself. The process was a bit frustrating and learning curve steep. But in the end, my belt adjustment was exactly what I wanted, and I gained a lot of knowledge. Good luck...... Jim