Front Wheel Alignment

[PMK]

If I make these corrections and until I get it to the dealer to be hooked up on BUDS am I going to get error codes on the dash. Or is it going to effect the operation in any way.

It may. The non centered steering sensor may have the Spyder pull to one side and electrically load the steering box.

FWIW, you could note the original settings by marking the tie rod. Then make your adjustments. Make a second set of alignment marks.

Reset the steering to stock, ride to the dealer, adjust the rods in the parking lot to your spec. Then have them accomplish a BUDS hookup and null the steering sensor.

 

[SpyderJerry]

no error codes.

If I make these corrections and until I get it to the dealer to be hooked up on BUDS am I going to get error codes on the dash. Or is it going to effect the operation in any way.

The only thing I noticed was a little pull to the left, because of center being off. But mine was a totaled out crashed unit with new magnet, so it had to be reset anyway. No codes because of steering center.

 

[PMK]

Without rider on board, I weight 245. Still have Kenda tires, will be replacing soon as I wear them down, but handle ok at this time.

Interesting. That setting was not ideal for me at less weight. Glad it works for you. I did test that setting and even with less induced bump steer on account of us running FoxShox, 1/8” still had turn in concerns apexing the corners.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

If I make these corrections and until I get it to the dealer to be hooked up on BUDS am I going to get error codes on the dash. Or is it going to effect the operation in any way.

Probably not. Depends on how far off zero the steering angle sensor is when you're moving straight forward.

 

[lindsayw148]

Just a quick note about BRP recommending the Rolo alignment system, and therefore owners not trusting any other alignment system: given their track record for ignoring owners’ concerns about wheel alignment, would you trust BRP’s recommendation? The Rolo system uses a hub insert to get a true parallel plane to the brake rotors and that’s fine. Wheel stand-offs, however, have been used for wheel alignment for more than a century – they were accurate in the days of string-lines, they are still accurate in the days of lasers. What the OP discovered was zero toe-in, which is VERY COMMON, or at least is common, straight out of the crate, here in Australia. With the toe-out bias generated by suspension movement while the bike is in motion, this actually means a small amount of toe-out in motion ( dependent on rider and passenger weight ), which is the worst-case-scenario, leading to twitchy steering and wandering, especially on uneven surfaces ( like most roads ).


Not getting the handlebar exactly straight before performing the alignment is exactly the same as not getting a steering wheel exactly centered on a car – it causes slight crabbing, but the alignment is still accurate. Aiming at 1/8” toe-in for an RT is, for fussy peeps like me, good for heavy loads, but probably a bit too much for solo riding. I am used to thinking in metrics, but 1/8” is about 3mm, and I would normally align an RT to 2mm for an average-weight rider, perhaps 2.5mm for rider and passenger. About 0.5mm less than that for the lighter models, RS, ST, F3.

Lindsay.

 

[stmike 1800]

Has anyone gone to a car alignment shop ,to see what they can do ? I have set the toe in on a lot of vehicles using the string method ,but the spyder is missing a wheel .

 

[PMK]

Just a quick note about BRP recommending the Rolo alignment system, and therefore owners not trusting any other alignment system: given their track record for ignoring owners’ concerns about wheel alignment, would you trust BRP’s recommendation? The Rolo system uses a hub insert to get a true parallel plane to the brake rotors and that’s fine. Wheel stand-offs, however, have been used for wheel alignment for more than a century – they were accurate in the days of string-lines, they are still accurate in the days of lasers. What the OP discovered was zero toe-in, which is VERY COMMON, or at least is common, straight out of the crate, here in Australia. With the toe-out bias generated by suspension movement while the bike is in motion, this actually means a small amount of toe-out in motion ( dependent on rider and passenger weight ), which is the worst-case-scenario, leading to twitchy steering and wandering, especially on uneven surfaces ( like most roads ).


Not getting the handlebar exactly straight before performing the alignment is exactly the same as not getting a steering wheel exactly centered on a car – it causes slight crabbing, but the alignment is still accurate. Aiming at 1/8” toe-in for an RT is, for fussy peeps like me, good for heavy loads, but probably a bit too much for solo riding. I am used to thinking in metrics, but 1/8” is about 3mm, and I would normally align an RT to 2mm for an average-weight rider, perhaps 2.5mm for rider and passenger. About 0.5mm less than that for the lighter models, RS, ST, F3.

Lindsay.

Somewhere on this site there should be photos of the original BRP method of alignment. It was lengthy and involved. Essentially, in simple terms, you removed the front shocks and installed fixed length bars. Then utilized measurements taken from the chassis it self.

Endorsing ROLO, gave another less complicated method to align the front wheels.

Your tooling and method provides another simple means to set the front wheel toe.

In regards to the handlebars being in the correct position, agree this has no mechanical effect on the alignment of the wheels. As for crabbing, the misaligned bars will not cause this, the few things that can cause true crabbing or the vehicle to travel sideways are an improperly positioned rear wheel and the various causes of the that.

A four wheeled vehicle, such as a car, must have the two axles parrallel to each other, or the centerline of the two front stub axles parrallel to the rear axle. Any misalignment of the axles will cause the vehicle to crab or travel sideways.

On a Spyder, you could have excessive toe in, or toe out, and have no crabbing, provided the rear wheel is correctly positioned. The Spyders front axles will always split the difference to travel straight ahead and align themselves parrallel to the rear axle.

 

[PMK]

Has anyone gone to a car alignment shop ,to see what they can do ? I have set the toe in on a lot of vehicles using the string method ,but the spyder is missing a wheel .

There have been posts about this being done and working well. The Spyder front end has only toe adjustments so it is far simpler than any car. Finding a shop willing to do the work without any data to set it to may be more difficult than it’s worth.

 

[rvanbeek]

Just a quick note about BRP recommending the Rolo alignment system, and therefore owners not trusting any other alignment system: given their track record for ignoring owners’ concerns about wheel alignment, would you trust BRP’s recommendation? The Rolo system uses a hub insert to get a true parallel plane to the brake rotors and that’s fine. Wheel stand-offs, however, have been used for wheel alignment for more than a century – they were accurate in the days of string-lines, they are still accurate in the days of lasers. What the OP discovered was zero toe-in, which is VERY COMMON, or at least is common, straight out of the crate, here in Australia. With the toe-out bias generated by suspension movement while the bike is in motion, this actually means a small amount of toe-out in motion ( dependent on rider and passenger weight ), which is the worst-case-scenario, leading to twitchy steering and wandering, especially on uneven surfaces ( like most roads ).


Not getting the handlebar exactly straight before performing the alignment is exactly the same as not getting a steering wheel exactly centered on a car – it causes slight crabbing, but the alignment is still accurate. Aiming at 1/8” toe-in for an RT is, for fussy peeps like me, good for heavy loads, but probably a bit too much for solo riding. I am used to thinking in metrics, but 1/8” is about 3mm, and I would normally align an RT to 2mm for an average-weight rider, perhaps 2.5mm for rider and passenger. About 0.5mm less than that for the lighter models, RS, ST, F3.

Lindsay.

Thanks Lindsay for your input. The Jig was made from your recommendations. I'm an average rider at about 200 lbs. My toe in on the left side seems to be .75 inches. By your calculation I need to get that down to .420 or 7/16 of an inch at the target to the rear. That should translate to .2mm at the wheel if my math is correct. I would also have to bring the right side toe out to the same measurement. I went out this morning on a newly paved road and found using the cruise I could take hands off steering and I drifted to the Right. Even while riding the crown of the road it drifted right.

 

[jcthorne]

Thanks Lindsay for your input. The Jig was made from your recommendations. I'm an average rider at about 200 lbs. My toe in on the left side seems to be .75 inches. By your calculation I need to get that down to .420 or 7/16 of an inch at the target to the rear. That should translate to .2mm at the wheel if my math is correct. I would also have to bring the right side toe out to the same measurement. I went out this morning on a newly paved road and found using the cruise I could take hands off steering and I drifted to the Right. Even while riding the crown of the road it drifted right.

After you set the toe, did you recenter the dynamic power steering unit and its torque sensor? If not the power steering unit can pull you to one side or the other even with the alignment correct.

They have to work together.

 

[rvanbeek]

JC I haven't done anything yet. Trying to get my duck in a row before I jump in.

 

[PMK]

After you set the toe, did you recenter the dynamic power steering unit and its torque sensor? If not the power steering unit can pull you to one side or the other even with the alignment correct.

They have to work together.

Exactly, this is a point I tried to convey earlier.

Also, these Spyders are so basic in steering geometry that because of bump steer they have a wide range of acceptable settings that handle well and do not consume tires.

I aligned ours back in 2014 first by feel then using toe sticks. I have checked and aligned others that were laser aligned, but eating tires, realigned with the toe sticks and tne rider seated on the machine. No more tire wear, rolls better and incresed fuel MPG.

There is no adjustment for caster or camber, simply toe setting. Just like an old school go kart.

 

[lindsayw148]

My toe in on the left side seems to be .75 inches. By your calculation I need to get that down to .420 or 7/16 of an inch at the target to the rear. That should translate to .2mm at the wheel if my math is correct. I would also have to bring the right side toe out to the same measurement.

Ummm... some mathematical conflicts for me, there. Metrics is much easier. When I align an RT, I set the toe-in to about 8 or 10mm at the targets for an average-weight rider – that's about 5/16" to about, yes, about 7/16" if you can figure that out! The targets, of course, are at 5 times the diameter of the front wheels away, so those measurements are 5 times what the across-the-wheel settings are. If you are a millimeter or so out at the targets, that's diddly-squat at the wheels! ( diddly-squat is an official measurement, usually described as 'Pfffft!... ah, that's close enough.' )

To answer another post, most car alignment firms have swiveling jigs on a car hoist, so they can align both front and back wheels, but a Spyder won't fit on a hoist because of the single rear wheel – that's why most firms refuse to align Spyders. Too hard basket. It really has to be done on the floor.

Agree about the crabbing, rear wheel needs to be crooked, incorrectly-set handlebars merely make uneven bar position. DPS zero needs to be out by a substantial amount to cause veering, but I have seen that a few times.

 

[jcthorne]

Ummm... some mathematical conflicts for me, there. Metrics is much easier. When I align an RT, I set the toe-in to about 8 or 10mm at the targets for an average-weight rider – that's about 5/16" to about, yes, about 7/16" if you can figure that out! The targets, of course, are at 5 times the diameter of the front wheels away, so those measurements are 5 times what the across-the-wheel settings are. If you are a millimeter or so out at the targets, that's diddly-squat at the wheels! ( diddly-squat is an official measurement, usually described as 'Pfffft!... ah, that's close enough.' )

To answer another post, most car alignment firms have swiveling jigs on a car hoist, so they can align both front and back wheels, but a Spyder won't fit on a hoist because of the single rear wheel – that's why most firms refuse to align Spyders. Too hard basket. It really has to be done on the floor.

Agree about the crabbing, rear wheel needs to be crooked, incorrectly-set handlebars merely make uneven bar position. DPS zero needs to be out by a substantial amount to cause veering, but I have seen that a few times.

Actually a pretty small error on the DPS Torque sensor will result in veering to the other side. The DPS thinks its getting steering input from the rider in that direction. You are right on the zero position of the angle sensor.

 

[daz]

Thanks

This is a wonderful thread. Thanks to everyone for the education. I bought my 2011 RT with just 1500 miles from the second owner. It already had the Baja Ron on it. The owner said he was selling for "health" reasons! Ha! Obviously it had problems. Anyhow, with tires and alignment it's just fine now. And I understand why.

 

[lindsayw148]

There is always one ‘downhill’ wheel – for you in N.America it’s the right wheel, for me in Australia it’s the left. That wheel carries a bit more of the steering load than the ‘uphill’ wheel because of Mr Newton’s apple. It’s not a constant thing, it jiggles from wheel to wheel because of bumps and uneven surfaces and, whenever one wheel grabs the road more than its neighbor, the bike tries to dart in whatever direction it is pointing, because the Spyder is such a light vehicle. With slight toe-out in motion there is a difference between which way each wheel is pointing, so this is why the steering is so twitchy over rough surfaces or vague over smoother ones, and also why the relatively unloaded uphill wheel is the one that tends to scrub the most. With much larger inaccuracy, either toe-out or toe-in, the amount of ‘scrub’ is more constant, so steering is ironically easier to manage, although at higher cost in rubber.

 

[PMK]

There is always one ‘downhill’ wheel – for you in N.America it’s the right wheel, for me in Australia it’s the left. That wheel carries a bit more of the steering load than the ‘uphill’ wheel because of Mr Newton’s apple. It’s not a constant thing, it jiggles from wheel to wheel because of bumps and uneven surfaces and, whenever one wheel grabs the road more than its neighbor, the bike tries to dart in whatever direction it is pointing, because the Spyder is such a light vehicle. With slight toe-out in motion there is a difference between which way each wheel is pointing, so this is why the steering is so twitchy over rough surfaces or vague over smoother ones, and also why the relatively unloaded uphill wheel is the one that tends to scrub the most. With much larger inaccuracy, either toe-out or toe-in, the amount of ‘scrub’ is more constant, so steering is ironically easier to manage, although at higher cost in rubber.

Add in, chassis lean in corners along with a zero toe, insufficient toe in, or even toed out setting, as the bike leans, the toe out increases on tne outside tire, the inside tire may go from toed out, to zero to toed in in an instant and see the bike dart to the inside of the corner.

Ours has never been laser aligned. Initially, the bike was crap. Experience from racing karts let me know there was toe out causing instability in the corners. Straight was ok. I made a minor toe change at first with a simple known amount of tie rod rotation. This alone improved handling everywhere.

Using toe sticks, I measured and noted the settings. Again based on simply feel, I added more toe in. Once it felt neutral, I remeasured and found that with a rider seated onboard, and the chassis settled, there was a small amount of toe in.

My opinion regarding the setup, is that if the Spyder will carry a steady line without chasing the steering through sweeping corners that is a good setting. If the Spyder steering requires attention to either correct a darting to the inside of the corner, or has silly manners entering the corner, tne toe setting is off.

 

[PMK]

There is always one ‘downhill’ wheel – for you in N.America it’s the right wheel, for me in Australia it’s the left. That wheel carries a bit more of the steering load than the ‘uphill’ wheel because of Mr Newton’s apple. It’s not a constant thing, it jiggles from wheel to wheel because of bumps and uneven surfaces and, whenever one wheel grabs the road more than its neighbor, the bike tries to dart in whatever direction it is pointing, because the Spyder is such a light vehicle. With slight toe-out in motion there is a difference between which way each wheel is pointing, so this is why the steering is so twitchy over rough surfaces or vague over smoother ones, and also why the relatively unloaded uphill wheel is the one that tends to scrub the most. With much larger inaccuracy, either toe-out or toe-in, the amount of ‘scrub’ is more constant, so steering is ironically easier to manage, although at higher cost in rubber.

Agree that road crowns or gullies worn into the roads from use over time can give a Spyder some handling fits. Overall though, the crowned road is not normally an issue. It may require a slight input to hold the line but typically not bad. As for the worn roads. Most often, at least for us, I am able to find that sweet spot where either the rear tire is on the high portion and the fronts ride in the gullies, or the rear is in the gully and fronts on the higher spots. No real preference other try to find what is best while riding.

 

[stmike 1800]

Lots of good info here, thanks . My bike is a real hand full on some of are bad roads .It dips and dives like it had a mind of its own . Yesterday i jacked up the bike scribed a line in the center of the front tires . Measured and found 1/16 toe in ,i adjusted it to 1/8 toe in .And will try it today ,if no rain .
What is the difference from stock to bajaron's sway bar ,i measured mine 16 mm ?

 

[PMK]

Lots of good info here, thanks . My bike is a real hand full on some of are bad roads .It dips and dives like it had a mind of its own . Yesterday i jacked up the bike scribed a line in the center of the front tires . Measured and found 1/16 toe in ,i adjusted it to 1/8 toe in .And will try it today ,if no rain .
What is the difference from stock to bajaron's sway bar ,i measured mine 16 mm ?

1/16” to 1/8” if accurately measured will be a good improvement. However, to be accurate, the measurement must be taken at the tires 3 and 9 oclock positions and I suspect the fenders and bodywork prevent this.

Also, is that 1/16” or 1/8” with or without a rider on board? Those settings with no rider onboard still retain a toe out setting once the rider is seated and of average, say 200 pound weight.