First Idler Kit Failure?

[Roadster Renovations]

PMK,

I am glad someone else agrees with me, here is a PM I sent doc a couple of days ago;

"The sleeve you are using slips through the inside of the bearing. The sleeve I am talking about would be larger in diameter then the sleeve you are using and would contact the entire inner race of both inside bearings only. The only way to install this type of sleeve would be to remove one bearing install the sleeve, and reinstall the bearing.

Most 2 wheel motorcycles use this sleeve system for the front wheel. The reason for this is no matter how tight you tighten the nut and bolt, the bearings will not get pinched together because the inner sleeve is between the 2 bearings on the inside. Our spyders even use this system for the rear wheel.

This would eliminate the need for the preload and folks could crank down on that nut and bolt all they want and no damage would occur to the bearings. Your system is placing a pinching load on the bearings, no matter how carefully you tighten the nut and bolt. This is because there is nothing between the 2 bearings on the inside race to prevent the 2 bearings from being squeezed together. The bearings are only being supported by the outside races in the roller.

There is also the danger since you are using the nut and bolt for preload as well as holding the roller, that a loose nut and bolt could spin in the arm if a bearing got tight or failed.

Now I know what you are thinking, all older cars with cone front wheel bearings were just like your system, adjust the castle nut for preload, then install the cotter pin back in. The issue is that a cone bearing is designed to endure this preload as the bearings are made like needle roller bearings.

The bearings you are using have little tiny ball bearings inside the inner and outer race. If there is any preload on them between the inner and outer race, they will fail, especially with the high speed that roller is turning.

All you would have to do is make a sleeve, pull one bearing install the sleeve, and reinstall the bearing. No changes would have to be made to your roller. When you tighten the nut and bolt, it will pull the 2 bearings together, but they will now be supported by the sleeve that contacts the inner race of both bearings only.

If you do not understand the way I am explaining this I could get a diagram for you. Just trying to save you some future grief, as the way this roller is designed in it's current form it will eventually fail."

I have doc's idler and spare roller in my hand, just received today. I am certain as the bearing breaks in, the pinching tension between the 2 bearings is going to change (because there is no spacer between the 2 bearings inside the roller). When that occurs, the bolt is going to loosen up on the idler and the bearings are going to spin on the spacers.

Doc, please do not take this as a personal attack. I have used many of your products and are very happy with them. Please, look at similar devices that use bearings like your roller does. They all have spacers between the bearings for a very important reason.
You have a good product here, just installing a spacer between the bearings could make it a bullet proof fantastic product! I would be more then willing to purchase a spacer from you to put inside the roller, if you offer one. The way it is currently designed I am not willing to install it on my Spyder.

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And as I explained, if this does become an issue, we will address it. Why in the hell are you acting like this? I have said we will warranty the pulley 2 years and have stated that we will change it if need be. It is almost like you have made this a personal crusade to run our product down. You have stated your opinion and it has been noted. Move on.

 

[PMK]

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And as I explained, if this does become an issue, we will address it. Why in the hell are you acting like this? I have said we will warranty the pulley 2 years and have stated that we will change it if need be. It is almost like you have made this a personal crusade to run our product down. You have stated your opinion and it has been noted. Move on.

Doc, ever since we purchased our Spyder in January of 2014, I have been kind of fascinated by the idea of a tenioner. This time frame places the tensioners I was looking at, well before the BRP, well before the Roadster Renovations, and maybe before you yourself even owned a Spyder.

Now over three years later, I am still fascinated by the idea of the tensioner, but the minimal vibrations and none of the designs have appealed to me for various reasons.

There is no personal crusade to take your product down, exactly the opposite in my opinion. This place Spyderlovers is a social place where almost always value is brought to the front of the table. Like many other products discussed here, the discussions get heated and detailed.

If anything, in the same fashion you compared your roller to the BRP roller by pointing out perceived flaws, others have done the same to your roller. To see where a person took the time to email you concerns hardly seems to be a crusade to take your product down.

Myself, I watched the video when you first posted it and without discussing it with others, had a difficult time understanding why your design deviated from time proven designs for many type of double ball bearing devices.

Yes it is your design, just as BRP has their design and so does Smooth Spyder and Baker Built.

In your own words, time and miles will tell......this is a tough place, the best warranty in the world has difficulty overcoming a breakdown on the road. I truly hope your design prevails with no issues. All the best with it and your other products.

 

[jroberts650]

Why doesn't everyone just reduce the belt tension a little and not have to deal with the vibrations? The dealer aligned and tensioned my belt and I had tons of vibrations, the ISCI floorboards didn't make it ideal either since they have no rubber isolators. I reduced my tension and now..... No vibrations and smooth as silk. You have to find your belt's sweet spot but there is one.

Plus the BRP tensioner started to whine on my ribbed belt to where I couldn't take it anymore. :gaah:

This is just my experience with this issue.

 

[PMK]

Why doesn't everyone just reduce the belt tension a little and not have to deal with the vibrations? The dealer aligned and tensioned my belt and I had tons of vibrations, the ISCI floorboards didn't make it ideal either since they have no rubber isolators. I reduced my tension and now..... No vibrations and smooth as silk. You have to find your belt's sweet spot but there is one.

Plus the BRP tensioner started to whine on my ribbed belt to where I couldn't take it anymore. :gaah:

This is just my experience with this issue.

Ironically, this was mentioned in the Belt Tensioner Poll. Others and myself have reduced belt tension and eliminated vibration except under a couple of not typical cruising situations.

Our tension worked fine within the TSB guidelines, the Blueknight found a tension below the TSB guidelines that worked for him. I'm not sure what specs others utilized as they reduced tension on the belt for their Spyder.

 

[jroberts650]

Ironically, this was mentioned in the Belt Tensioner Poll. Others and myself have reduced belt tension and eliminated vibration except under a couple of not typical cruising situations.

Our tension worked fine within the TSB guidelines, the Blueknight found a tension below the TSB guidelines that worked for him. I'm not sure what specs others utilized as they reduced tension on the belt for their Spyder.

I would speculate that every belt will have a different spec to where there's no vibration. It's just the matter of taking the time and a little trial and error. There's other bike out there with belt drives that have no vibrations. My Vulcan was so smooth and didn't need a thing.

 

[SpyderSteveFL]

When I first got my Spyder there was an obvious vibration at highway speeds that I couldn't figure out. Folks on here said it was likely belt vibration. I was looking at the SmoothSpyder at the time but when I took my bike in for first inspection I asked them to check the belt. Considering they were sloppy and screwed up a bunch of stuff, amazingly they must have adjusted the belt correctly and vibration was all but gone. Occasionally I may get some here and there but nothing enough to overcome my concerns and cost. I'd rather spend the $$ on other stuff and my main concern is anything on bearings spinning at 10 gazillion RPM. To me even the best constructed part will fail at some point under those conditions and I especially wouldn't want it coming apart at high speed near my gas tank. Maybe I'm totally wrong and paranoid and if a simple belt adjustment didn't fix it I would be more seriously considering a fix, but all these designs give me pause. I would want some sort of cover or protection so if this thing did let go, the bits and pieces and bearings would be contained and not projectiles. Just my layman opinion - I totally wish anyone that is out there trying to solve problems and improve things all the best. Kudos to all working to better things but please always consider safety first (coming from a Safety Officer).

 

[honda]

BRP IDLER ON RT

Just installed Doc Humphries tensioner and it stopped the vibration on my bike. The job took a half hour.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Why doesn't everyone just reduce the belt tension a little and not have to deal with the vibrations? The dealer aligned and tensioned my belt and I had tons of vibrations, the ISCI floorboards didn't make it ideal either since they have no rubber isolators. I reduced my tension and now..... No vibrations and smooth as silk. You have to find your belt's sweet spot but there is one.

Plus the BRP tensioner started to whine on my ribbed belt to where I couldn't take it anymore. :gaah:

This is just my experience with this issue.

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I have been thinking about what you said and in some cases that will work. For a time. That is going to vary from ryder to ryder. Since the tension on the belt changes due to load, the air ryde setting, number of ryders, and the natural wear of the belt, adjusting and maintaining it will be a great deal of work for some. You might find the spot for yourself, then it not work while you are ryding with your wife. Or, if you adjusted it for yourself, then on a longer trip carried extra gear, would that put you out of the sweet spot? And, let's face it. Every so often our alignment and tension gets off on the belts. They say that these Kevlar belts don't stretch much, but there is enough of a change to warrant adjusting them. And, getting into the dealer for an adjustment, especially during ryding season is a wonderful experience. If your ryding parameters stay the same (mostly), and you are handy and able to adjust your belt correctly, I would say that it would work well for you. Otherwise, the damper is a good alternative to those "bad vibes".