First Idler Kit Failure?

[Road-Kill]

I think being relatively new here may have prejudiced your statement. Doc knows of what he speaks, and all he has spoken here, is the truth.

:doorag:

And you know this how?

 

[Jeriatric]

Clarity

And you know this how?

Are you asking what I know about Doc?

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Doc , I can't believe you didn't mention the windshield .....ARM... which been a problem since 2010 !!!!!! and the warranty fix on that is $ 700.00 ................:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack: ..... Mike :thumbup:

Dang, Mike! You are right! Someone should start a thread about the known issues of both bykes and then they can be addressed at Valcourt. if we band together on these issues, and enough of us do so, it *might* make them listen.

And, Roadkill, as far what I said about the problems, all of us "oldtimers" know about these problems. and they have been discussed many, many times. Especially the middle windshield racket that can suddenly break and throw the windshield back at you.

 

[Bob Denman]

If you remember what we were ALL saying about the "998 RTs": BRP did address that list thoroughly! nojoke
So a bit of politely-worded "observations", can go a long way toward improving our bikes!

 

[Road-Kill]

Are you asking what I know about Doc?

Yes. What and how do you know him. Then the bigger question is who are you. I'm not intending to be insulting. I used to be an investigator and asking questions and questioning people are second nature to me. My thoughts.

 

[Jeriatric]

I'm not insulted. We all have our ways.

Yes. What and how do you know him. Then the bigger question is who are you. I'm not intending to be insulting. I used to be an investigator and asking questions and questioning people are second nature to me. My thoughts.

Me, I'm no one special. Just another face in a sea of them.

How do I know Doc?

Years ago I purchased his product, have had phone conversations with him, and observed the way he treats people here. Both his customers and those that may not be. So, in short, for me, he has passed the test of time.

 

[Bob Denman]

:agree: :thumbup:... and for exactly the same reasons!
(Although I probably have a couple more of his products on my bike... hyea

 

[bmwlarry]

Re Idler failures

I have purchased the adapter kit for 15RT from Doc and also bought the BRP idler. I have not installed yet but am now hearing about failures or at least longevity issues. My question is should I proceed with the install of the BRP arm or bag the idea all together???

 

[Ex-Rocket]

Re Idler failures

I have purchased the adapter kit for 15RT from Doc and also bought the BRP idler. I have not installed yet but am now hearing about failures or at least longevity issues. My question is should I proceed with the install of the BRP arm or bag the idea all together???

I'm aboard that same boat as you are. I have the adapter kit and the BRP belt tensioner and haven't installed mine as yet either. What do I do?? I'm not going to bag the entire idea, but Doc's double ball bearings makes a lot more sense to me than a single bearing.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

As far as using the BRP kit, it appears that the failure is just a lack of stopping the vibrations when it fails. So far, none of them have actually seized up, causing a tow. With that in mind, and the fact that others are getting good mileage out of theirs, you could go ahead and use them. Might even last this ryding season, then you can upgrade if you want after the ryding season. Obviously, you have to make your own decisions and that is just my .02 worth.

 

[Bob Denman]

Hi Doc,
Could the premature failure of these units be due to them not being properly aligned with the belt? :dontknow:

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Hi Doc,
Could the premature failure of these units be due to them not being properly aligned with the belt? :dontknow:

While that is possible, but with the RTBK adapter it actually makes the whole unit longer than the F3 one and should be easier to get it straight with the belt. I would think if it was misaligned, it would actually skip on the belt and prematurely wear the pulley. If the pulley is divided equally on the belt, it cannot be off very much. I think that it may have to do with belt tension, but it could be an alignment issue. Not ruling that out.

 

[PMK]

Guys, on the modern motocross bikes we run rollers to control the chains. The older vintage bikes we ran spring loaded chain tensioners.

Those rollers were exposed to conditions far worse than the Spyder will ever see with one exception, duration of each ride and sustained rpm.

The off road woods racers or desert racers will see the sustained roller speeds and long time non stop use.

The key to those rollers surviving is having a sealed set of bearings and zero preload on the bearings. Metal shielded bearings will fail as they are exposed to water and fine grit that washes into them and also depletes the grease.

Additionally, and this will rub a lot of feathers the wrong way, but my experience in dealing with roller setups and similar setups on other double bearing designed products has always found that for the system to offer the greatest performance and survive, the inner bearing race must be rigidly fastened. In other words, the nut is tightened or torqued fully to spec. Any bearing preload is accounted for by the roller design, spring washers, or other methods. A system that does not clamp the bearings inner race is subject to seeing the inner race spin on the bolt / axle, or the bolt / axle spinning in the mount. These too can cause premature failures.

I have seen the video where the BRP roller wobble and play is demonstrated, in most cases that should not be a concern if the inner bearing race is tightened and the belt force runs down the rollers centerline. Granted it is a single bearing dealing with the full load.

The method utilized in the other brand to secure the roller does not offer a secured inner race. By design the nut is tightened to remove excess play but still induces a certain preload into the bearing that it may not be designed for. Also, as the roller is heated, the metal will expand, adding length to the parts and in theory increasing or decreasing preload which will result in premature bearing failure.

I also noted the other brand utilized a shielded bearing design. Shielded bearings are typically installed into a cleaner environment where the exposure to outside contaminants is nil.

I truly hope everyone running a tensioner has great results with them.
Myself, when I heard Lamont had backed out of designing or working on the Lamonster version of the tensioner for the RT I took notice. He never explained why, but no doubt is a person with an ear to the track regarding Spyders.

 

[Bob Denman]

Thanks... I was just wondering about all of this. :dontknow:

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Guys, on the modern motocross bikes we run rollers to control the chains. The older vintage bikes we ran spring loaded chain tensioners.

Those rollers were exposed to conditions far worse than the Spyder will ever see with one exception, duration of each ride and sustained rpm.

The off road woods racers or desert racers will see the sustained roller speeds and long time non stop use.

The key to those rollers surviving is having a sealed set of bearings and zero preload on the bearings. Metal shielded bearings will fail as they are exposed to water and fine grit that washes into them and also depletes the grease.

Additionally, and this will rub a lot of feathers the wrong way, but my experience in dealing with roller setups and similar setups on other double bearing designed products has always found that for the system to offer the greatest performance and survive, the inner bearing race must be rigidly fastened. In other words, the nut is tightened or torqued fully to spec. Any bearing preload is accounted for by the roller design, spring washers, or other methods. A system that does not clamp the bearings inner race is subject to seeing the inner race spin on the bolt / axle, or the bolt / axle spinning in the mount. These too can cause premature failures.

I have seen the video where the BRP roller wobble and play is demonstrated, in most cases that should not be a concern if the inner bearing race is tightened and the belt force runs down the rollers centerline. Granted it is a single bearing dealing with the full load.

The method utilized in the other brand to secure the roller does not offer a secured inner race. By design the nut is tightened to remove excess play but still induces a certain preload into the bearing that it may not be designed for. Also, as the roller is heated, the metal will expand, adding length to the parts and in theory increasing or decreasing preload which will result in premature bearing failure.

I also noted the other brand utilized a shielded bearing design. Shielded bearings are typically installed into a cleaner environment where the exposure to outside contaminants is nil.

I truly hope everyone running a tensioner has great results with them.
Myself, when I heard Lamont had backed out of designing or working on the Lamonster version of the tensioner for the RT I took notice. He never explained why, but no doubt is a person with an ear to the track regarding Spyders.

I have to respectfully disagree as to the inner races not being properly tensioned. That is what the inner sleeve does. It is crushed to the proper tension so that both inner races are held with minimal sideload. And as far as heat, after 80 miles an hour for 20 minutes, the entire roller was just barely warmer than the ambient. Time will certainly tell on whether our rollers will be an issue. if they are, we will redesign them. Time and miles will tell........

 

[PMK]

I have to respectfully disagree as to the inner races not being properly tensioned. That is what the inner sleeve does. It is crushed to the proper tension so that both inner races are held with minimal sideload. And as far as heat, after 80 miles an hour for 20 minutes, the entire roller was just barely warmer than the ambient. Time will certainly tell on whether our rollers will be an issue. if they are, we will redesign them. Time and miles will tell........

Doc, as you respectfully disagree, I respectfully disagree with your comments and reference your own video on installing the rollers to support my statements about bearing preload, and the inability to properly fully secure the roller fastener.

The stack up of parts associated to build up the assembly does not allow the bolt and nut to be torqued tight as it should, but rather only to a point where the bearings are not crushed. Additionally, without reaching torque on the nut to secure the assembly, there is inherent ability for the bearing races and the spacers to spin upon the bolt. These are not welcome in a high speed rotating device.

In regards to heat, yes your roller may run cool, but as can happen on setups designed with bearing preloads, often even a small amount of heat can alter the true preload. The heat may not be generated from the rotating roller entirely, but could be heat absorbed by the components from engine, exhaust, or road surface.

My experience on similar setups in harsher situations always requires the bolt to be torqued and any preload is absorbed by other methods or no preload is applied. On other devices rotating on a pair of ball bearings, the longest life span for the bearings and components, plus the highest performance (peak rpm over 40,000) required exacting alignment but most importantly a controlled preload that could be absorbed as heat entered the parameters or a design that required zero preload and was not affected by thermal changes.

 

[IdleUp]

When I put up my overview on the Idler - I happened to mention the Idler looked like a cheap asse Tonka Toy and you guys beat up on me like I was nuts . . . .

As I said then and I'll say now - Can Am slipped it to all of us not installing a "Good" metal idler when they built the machine - they knew they had a problem but pushed the machine out and made us line up like idiots to pay for their mistake plus the lost time to take the machine to the dealer.

This smells just like their denial of the dynamic electric power steering problem that lasted 2 years before the Trade Commission made they owe up and fix 10,000 defective steering units from 2008-2009 after there was thousands of complaints and hundreds of accidents.

Lets all hope these trashy idlers don't come off and jam up the rear wheel and start causing accidents.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...F3-Belt-Idler-Pulley-Mike-Mas&highlight=idler

:bowdown:

 

[hellridgeryder]

Vibration gone

I had Doc's tensioner installed last Wednesday at Spyders on the Bayou. Before the install on my RT L there was a vibration at 71 to 75. I'm within a 100 miles from home and now have over a 1000 miles with the tensioner with no vibration. Was on I 55 North for 300 miles today at 70 75 with no vibration whatsoever. Thanks Doc.

 

[SpyderCruiser]

Doc, as you respectfully disagree, I respectfully disagree with your comments and reference your own video on installing the rollers to support my statements about bearing preload, and the inability to properly fully secure the roller fastener.

The stack up of parts associated to build up the assembly does not allow the bolt and nut to be torqued tight as it should, but rather only to a point where the bearings are not crushed. Additionally, without reaching torque on the nut to secure the assembly, there is inherent ability for the bearing races and the spacers to spin upon the bolt. These are not welcome in a high speed rotating device.

In regards to heat, yes your roller may run cool, but as can happen on setups designed with bearing preloads, often even a small amount of heat can alter the true preload. The heat may not be generated from the rotating roller entirely, but could be heat absorbed by the components from engine, exhaust, or road surface.

My experience on similar setups in harsher situations always requires the bolt to be torqued and any preload is absorbed by other methods or no preload is applied. On other devices rotating on a pair of ball bearings, the longest life span for the bearings and components, plus the highest performance (peak rpm over 40,000) required exacting alignment but most importantly a controlled preload that could be absorbed as heat entered the parameters or a design that required zero preload and was not affected by thermal changes.

PMK,

I am glad someone else agrees with me, here is a PM I sent doc a couple of days ago;

"The sleeve you are using slips through the inside of the bearing. The sleeve I am talking about would be larger in diameter then the sleeve you are using and would contact the entire inner race of both inside bearings only. The only way to install this type of sleeve would be to remove one bearing install the sleeve, and reinstall the bearing.

Most 2 wheel motorcycles use this sleeve system for the front wheel. The reason for this is no matter how tight you tighten the nut and bolt, the bearings will not get pinched together because the inner sleeve is between the 2 bearings on the inside. Our spyders even use this system for the rear wheel.

This would eliminate the need for the preload and folks could crank down on that nut and bolt all they want and no damage would occur to the bearings. Your system is placing a pinching load on the bearings, no matter how carefully you tighten the nut and bolt. This is because there is nothing between the 2 bearings on the inside race to prevent the 2 bearings from being squeezed together. The bearings are only being supported by the outside races in the roller.

There is also the danger since you are using the nut and bolt for preload as well as holding the roller, that a loose nut and bolt could spin in the arm if a bearing got tight or failed.

Now I know what you are thinking, all older cars with cone front wheel bearings were just like your system, adjust the castle nut for preload, then install the cotter pin back in. The issue is that a cone bearing is designed to endure this preload as the bearings are made like needle roller bearings.

The bearings you are using have little tiny ball bearings inside the inner and outer race. If there is any preload on them between the inner and outer race, they will fail, especially with the high speed that roller is turning.

All you would have to do is make a sleeve, pull one bearing install the sleeve, and reinstall the bearing. No changes would have to be made to your roller. When you tighten the nut and bolt, it will pull the 2 bearings together, but they will now be supported by the sleeve that contacts the inner race of both bearings only.

If you do not understand the way I am explaining this I could get a diagram for you. Just trying to save you some future grief, as the way this roller is designed in it's current form it will eventually fail."

I have doc's idler and spare roller in my hand, just received today. I am certain as the bearing breaks in, the pinching tension between the 2 bearings is going to change (because there is no spacer between the 2 bearings inside the roller). When that occurs, the bolt is going to loosen up on the idler and the bearings are going to spin on the spacers.

Doc, please do not take this as a personal attack. I have used many of your products and are very happy with them. Please, look at similar devices that use bearings like your roller does. They all have spacers between the bearings for a very important reason.
You have a good product here, just installing a spacer between the bearings could make it a bullet proof fantastic product! I would be more then willing to purchase a spacer from you to put inside the roller, if you offer one. The way it is currently designed I am not willing to install it on my Spyder.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Doc, as you respectfully disagree, I respectfully disagree with your comments and reference your own video on installing the rollers to support my statements about bearing preload, and the inability to properly fully secure the roller fastener.

The stack up of parts associated to build up the assembly does not allow the bolt and nut to be torqued tight as it should, but rather only to a point where the bearings are not crushed. Additionally, without reaching torque on the nut to secure the assembly, there is inherent ability for the bearing races and the spacers to spin upon the bolt. These are not welcome in a high speed rotating device.

In regards to heat, yes your roller may run cool, but as can happen on setups designed with bearing preloads, often even a small amount of heat can alter the true preload. The heat may not be generated from the rotating roller entirely, but could be heat absorbed by the components from engine, exhaust, or road surface.

My experience on similar setups in harsher situations always requires the bolt to be torqued and any preload is absorbed by other methods or no preload is applied. On other devices rotating on a pair of ball bearings, the longest life span for the bearings and components, plus the highest performance (peak rpm over 40,000) required exacting alignment but most importantly a controlled preload that could be absorbed as heat entered the parameters or a design that required zero preload and was not affected by thermal changes.

As I said, time and miles will tell.......