Best ECU flash results ever for me

[wingit3611]

To Bob

You'll be sorry that you missed a good thing because your thin skinned.

 

[Bob Denman]

nojoke I won't stand for being insulted; nobody should. nojoke
By the way: :welcome:

 

[Doc - Riverside]

Cool it Bob. The truth hurts.

 

[Bob Denman]

There is no truth in his statements... nojoke

...Unless you count his statement regarding my ownership of a Spyder.
Having owned two of them, and having a third one on order should give me more than enough reason to research what modifications I'd like to make to the new bike.

 

[Spyd_Piper]

Some questions are legit. But agree some are clutter. (especially when the info was posted but skimmed past)

I should add more about some things.

The stock machine is really targeted to get new riders into the sport. But it falls real short for Avid bikers. Even the new 1330 engine lacks performance and speed from the older 990 twin.
The nanny and throttle control is great to protect new users. Stops wheel spin. Slows them down from going to fast. Protects the engine from silly mistakes.
But people used to bikes have had their own control of speed limits and power delivery.

Another example is that the stock ignition mapping is fine for 87 octane. 91 is recommended for protection. Some people will just throw in old fuel laying in the garage all winter. But more importantly new users (or even some "un-techy" biker guys) could potentially lug the engine way too much. Just be in the wrong gear for the situation and not understand the sound of the engine tells them. Or even the vibration and feel. Hell, BRP had to put in lights so they know when to shift.
The more experienced person, the more they know the sound of an engine and can ride the power band and shift by feel. They are in control of power delivery. And how fast (or quick) they want to go.

But again, below 60% throttle is everything that that stock offers, Fuel milage, emissions, traction etc. Past that mark becomes Jeckyl vs Hyde.

Link wasn't working earlier but I think it will now.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

MAPPING

Some questions are legit. But agree some are clutter. (especially when the info was posted but skimmed past)

I should add more about some things.

The stock machine is really targeted to get new riders into the sport. But it falls real short for Avid bikers. Even the new 1330 engine lacks performance and speed from the older 990 twin.
The nanny and throttle control is great to protect new users. Stops wheel spin. Slows them down from going to fast. Protects the engine from silly mistakes.
But people used to bikes have had their own control of speed limits and power delivery.

Another example is that the stock ignition mapping is fine for 87 octane. 91 is recommended for protection. Some people will just throw in old fuel laying in the garage all winter. But more importantly new users (or even some "un-techy" biker guys) could potentially lug the engine way too much. Just be in the wrong gear for the situation and not understand the sound of the engine tells them. Or even the vibration and feel. Hell, BRP had to put in lights so they know when to shift.
The more experienced person, the more they know the sound of an engine and can ride the power band and shift by feel. They are in control of power delivery. And how fast (or quick) they want to go.

But again, below 60% throttle is everything that that stock offers, Fuel milage, emissions, traction etc. Past that mark becomes Jeckyl vs Hyde.

:agree: .... however, IMHO it's not possible to " LUG " any Spyder that has the " SE " Transmission ............. Mike :thumbup:

 

[jcthorne]

But again, below 60% throttle is everything that that stock offers, Fuel milage, emissions, traction etc. Past that mark becomes Jeckyl vs Hyde.

Anything specific you would need to know or questions to be asked for a tune? IE what sort of information is needed for the individual bike and owner and how might those answers change the tune parameters programmed.

For instance, I would want about all the power the engine is capable of short of engine damage or reduced reliability. Would still want the traction control and stability control to function at lower throttle. 91 octane minimum is no problem for this sort of application, I do that anyway. Also would want to keep a reasonable rpm limit. Kinda vague but this is for conversation. Also look forward to your videos.

 

[Firefly]

First, I have totally fallen in love with my new FLASHED RT. Before the flash, I had to pull a sport bike out of the garage to scratch a speed itch. Even though I say I'm working for the forum members, it's frustrating my information is dismissed as not being backed up. I provided detailed performance improvements that are LOW RPM ROLL ON TESTS. These test reflect what my bike is doing in the real world. When all the tests videos are edited you can study the real time results and make an informed decision for yourself.
Please conduct the simple test yourself if you even have a 1330 motor to test with. It's not difficult, you can count seconds in your head or maybe have a stop watch app to confirm if my base line readings are accurate. test 1. 1st gear 6 seconds of throttle, how fast does your 1330 go?? test 2. 2nd gear 35 mph roll on for 6 seconds. How fast does your bike go? test 3. 3rd gear 45 mph roll on for 6 seconds, how fast are YOU going. I extracted ALL MY TIMES OFF THE VIDEO ELAPSED TIMES.
How could ANY bike be up over 20 mph with the same test that is a LOW RPM ROLL ON TEST if it didn't have HUGE IMPROVEMENTS IN LOW END PERFORMANCE????
Go for it Bob and keep the thread going on and on until you have filled the thread up with all your comments and cute post so no one can actually find any real information in the thread.

I gotta chime in here......

I don't think Bob's questions were out of line. He had a genuine interest in the product.

I believe your power increases to be real.... but.... counting manually and posting what your roll on to 35, etc. and then trying to compare it to someone else on an F3 who is also manually counting simply is not going to be accurate.

I think it's fair to say you've had great increases, but if you're going to post numbers they should be as accurate as possible. Maybe your video shows some other methods being used, but even a stopwatch isn't going to be accurate. The true test would be a dyno, or use an onboard race computer like I used to have on my 2008 GS. You could program this to start timing as soon as it felt the bike move, it can time 0-60, 30-60, slowdowns, etc. This unit has accelerometers, wheel sensors, etc. and is very accurate. Can't remember the name of it.
If I get one of these ECU's done I will hook that race computer up to my F3 and do some testing. Maybe in the fall.

Another big difference to consider when comparing bike A to bike B is the rider. Not only their weight, but their throttle response, etc.
The F3 is much lighter than the RT and has less wind resistance. There's no sound reason the F3 will not clock quicker and faster numbers with like riders and environments.

I'm excited about this product and hope it sells well for them. Many people will be skeptics--- and that is a good thing! We have far too many people not asking questions and demanding facts these days.

One of my favorite quotes:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. ~Carl Sagan

Not that your claims here are 'extraordinary', I think they're pretty typical of what should be expected with a quality ECU remap.

Thanks for your testing and information.

 

[Firefly]

Dan,
Do you remember the price of those Aerocharger kits??
($5,000)

View attachment 150768

That's why I'm looking at more reasonable alternatives!

(But if you let them use your bike for the development of a kit: they've GOT to give you a break on the price!)

Yes.... I remember the cost of them... $5,000. Sounds crazy... but if they had one for the F3 at that price I would seriously consider it.... because.....

 

[sprdmx]

Yes.... I remember the cost of them... $5,000. Sounds crazy... but if they had one for the F3 at that price I would seriously consider it.... because.....

View attachment 150832

I second that! I had my old 2012 rss and finally decided to buy that aerocharger kit only to find out they stopped producing them lol. Now I have my f3 Daytona and I love it but more power is always needed!

 

[Schwingel9]

Looking forward to getting my doors blown off by an old retired guys heavy sailboat this weekend.

 

[Firefly]

I second that! I had my old 2012 rss and finally decided to buy that aerocharger kit only to find out they stopped producing them lol. Now I have my f3 Daytona and I love it but more power is always needed!

Someone has an 09 GS with the Aerocharger on it and Barnett clutch for $9,000.
If I had extra cash laying around I'd buy it.

 

[Spyd_Piper]

Anything specific you would need to know or questions to be asked for a tune? IE what sort of information is needed for the individual bike and owner and how might those answers change the tune parameters programmed.

For instance, I would want about all the power the engine is capable of short of engine damage or reduced reliability. Would still want the traction control and stability control to function at lower throttle. 91 octane minimum is no problem for this sort of application, I do that anyway. Also would want to keep a reasonable rpm limit. Kinda vague but this is for conversation. Also look forward to your videos.

Yes, low throttle is everything factory.

Need info:
- current modifications (that effect airflow in or out)
- planned future modifications
- fuel octane used (87,91,93,100, 100+)
- desired rev limit (stock for warranty purposes, best safe limit, highest safe limit, xx because this is a race engine with new valve springs and pistons crank work etc)
NOTE: +500rpm (8600) is completely harmless and good medium ground. 8800 is ok. 9200 is absolute max. 9500 and piston speed is too fast for reliability. 8100-8800 is bullet proof. Above 8800 - user assumes risk. So this is for engine builders or tuning shops.
- wanted speed limits (stock, xx or xx, none)
OFFROAD RACE USE>
NOTE: There is a speed threshold where throttle is shut down (in steps) in each gear. Beyond that becomes part throttle and can climb in speed but is solely based on extra help from hills or wind. We want to know the speed you want engine to pull to. Before limiting. You can expect 13% speed beyond that under certain conditions. Example - stock 3th gear pulls to 130kph. But can creep to 150kph after 5 miles. I want it to just pull to 150kph. (or in miles) (And then 170kph would be obtainable under slow acceleration circumstances)
Basically - the rev limiter can be your speed limiter for gears 1,2,3. 4th gear will get to and set your speed limit. 5-6 are overdrives.

If you don't know something, don't worry. It will be set to whats usable and sensible.

I suspect most will want
- better power all over.
- run 91 octane
- leave stock rev limiter
- leave stock speed limiter (or bump RT to F3 spec etc)

Racer types
- slip on exhaust or cat delete modification (off road race use only)
- fuel adjusted for slip on
- 91 or 93 octane
- 8600-8800 rev limit
- pull hard to 120mph, then limit as normal.

 

[monkeyboymorton]

Thanks for the last post, really useful.

I would say I fall into the 'what most will want' category. Just better all round performance without pushing it too far.

Although I do like the sound of removing the speed limiter and 'pull hard to 120' :thumbup:

 

[jcthorne]

Yes, low throttle is everything factory.

Need info:
- current modifications (that effect airflow in or out)
- planned future modifications
- fuel octane used (87,91,93,100, 100+)
- desired rev limit (stock for warranty purposes, best safe limit, highest safe limit, xx because this is a race engine with new valve springs and pistons crank work etc)
NOTE: +500rpm (8600) is completely harmless and good medium ground. 8800 is ok. 9200 is absolute max. 9500 and piston speed is too fast for reliability. 8100-8800 is bullet proof. Above 8800 - user assumes risk. So this is for engine builders or tuning shops.
- wanted speed limits (stock, xx or xx, none)

As is usually the case with me, think my choices might be a bit different but please comment if I have not chosen wisely. This is all about learning....

- low restriction muffler and primary muffler delete
- 93 octane but there are areas we travel to where 91 is all that is available.
- Stock 8100 Rev limit. The ecm does log this...permanently.
- No speed limit. Why would I not want the governor removed? Or perhaps I should have it set at some speed rating consistent with the S rated tires we use (not Kendas but lets not start another tire discussion here). But I would never spend much time there so heat build up in the tires is not really a concern.

Bits of information on lingo in Spydeeland for Spyd_Piper, on all 1330 equipped Spyders, there is a catalytic converter inside the primary muffler under the bike as its shipped from BRP. The typical way of getting rid of it is by installing a primary muffler bypass pipe. There is no part on the diagrams or service manuals referred to as a catalytic converter.

There are a number of low restriction mufflers available for the Spyders. It just so happens the stock muffler on the F3S (short turned up muffler) is pretty low restriction. Less than many of the after market mufflers for the RT and F3T. I do not know of any Spyder vendors that refer to the exhaust kits or muffler replacements as 'slip on'. That's more a Harley crowd term. Most mufflers for the Spyders are direct bolt ons using the stock cone and donut joint. They do not slip on as there is no slip joint with clamp.

I like where this is going and hope to see some real world results posted here from some who have tried it (other than Dennis) and would like to see Dennis and others videos showing not only speed but driveability, sound and the like. What's it LIKE to drive, not just wide open throttle.

 

[jcthorne]

Iv'e been testing ECU reflashes for the 1330 motor and the finale product is complete.

Here is where the finale product is at for performance.
1. Stock 1st gear 0 to 50 mph @ 6 seconds, Flash 0 to 63 mph @ 6 seconds
2. Stock 2nd gear roll on at 35 mph @ 6 seconds = 63 mph. flash 35 mph to 83 mph 6 seconds
3. Stock 3rd gear roll on at 45 mph @ 6 seconds = 73 mph. flash 45 mph to 96 mph 6 seconds

All limitations and restrictions have been removed, " more that 60 total". I suspect F3 owners will be knocking on 140 mph top end. One look at the video and I say OMG everytime

Quick question for you. How many miles have you driven the bike since the reflash? As it seems you have gone several iterations, perhaps how many miles total on the reflashed ECU? How is your everyday startup and driveability? Any idiosyncrasies you have noted good or poor? Fuel milage change? I would expect with more use of the right grip the fuel consumption might increase but cruising mileage may improve? Stay the same? Suffer a bit?

 

[Firefly]

Certainly some good info, but can someone chime in on these 'governor' statements.
At least with the 990 V-twin, the only 'governor' was on RPM's.... not speed.
Are there actual SPEED limits with the 1330, or is it simply controlled by limiting the RPM's?

I know I never hit a speed limiter on my GS, just ran out of road when I was at 128 (which is about 6 high compared to my Garmin at that speed). The main limiter was wind resistance.

I know of those who have been to 140 on their F3.
So is there an actual speed limiter? If so what is it???

I'm personally more interested in QUICKNESS over SPEED.

 

[Bob Denman]

Someone has an 09 GS with the Aerocharger on it and Barnett clutch for $9,000.
If I had extra cash laying around I'd buy it.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?86877-TURBOCHARGED-CAN-AM-SPYDER

How tempted can we make you?

 

[Spyd_Piper]

To me, i use slip on in reference to a muffler. And full exhaust is heads back.

Specific spyder testing has been in place since April 2017. No clue on cumulative miles.
The Spyder ecu (Bosch 17.8.5) has been used in many Canam models since 2011. Cumulative re-mappings? (including tests) < 4 digits
Thinking about cumulative hours - just gave me a migraine.

There is no change to stock under 60% throttle. Gas milage or fuel consumption has no change.
If you drive more open throttle, fuel consumption will increase.
Fuel milage under wot conditions - If an engine makes more power - its burning more fuel. As that what makes power. Burning fuel. (Granted, more oxygen is needed to support it. You certainly can't just dump fuel)

Firefly,
The V990 had mechanical Throttle bodies. Rev limit (engine rpm) and engine power output are its limits. Older ones had a different ecu. (Siemens VDO MSE 3.7) And yes, this did have a speed limit. Don't know off hand what it is but could find it if i wasn't busy. There are different kinds of limiters. Hard limits. Or soft / gradual. That reduce power by ignition timing. It may of been set higher than achievable. Or it could be that the timing reduction couldn't reduce power enough to stop speed gain.
They key word you used is - run out of road. Meaning it takes a long time to reach a given speed. If there is any speed liming at play, and its removed. The speed can be achieved far faster.

Speed limiters and Torque limiters are on EVERY model that has electronic throttle control. All models with 1330 ace have an electronic throttle body.
As mentioned, the limiter is a closing of the throttle. If an F3 owner (or a buddy knew of another buddy who knew another buddy who once seen him in a supermarket, 2 isles down) has freshly greased bearings, wind on his back and enough road - certainly he could obtain whatever speed with less than 30% or 40% throttle. Actual speed limit is limited by power at a low throttle opening.

I know exactly the limits each model or file. I can see it with my own 2 eyes. But i am not going to give specific info or numbers that could help a person that tries to do what we do. There are companies or people that change a bit of timing in the low end. Try to sell run more octane and get more torque. Or claim this bosch ecu is more advanced than an auto world. Or has 100 maps for fuel alone. LMAO. Funny stuff.

If you want to know your limit on your model - hammer down. You will find it. If you want a change in when its delivered (i.e: pull to xx speed before shutting down) then that can easily be done. If you think you slow down at speeds between 80-108mph (model and gear dependant) because you ran put of power - thats not the case at all.

 

[Firefly]

Fair enough. I figured things would be different with the fly-by-wire setup.

I'm not so much into top-end as to how quickly I can get to 60 or from 40 to 80, etc.....

Have to wait until fall or winter to send mine in.....too much good weather to ride in here in Michigan that I don't want to miss out on....