Amsoil 10w-40 metric oil - what do you think?

[BajaRon]

The manual calls for 5W-40, and 5W-40 only. If you use anything else, that potentially gives BRP a leg to stand on to deny warranty claims on the engine and transmission. That's what I'm scared of. I will only use 5W-40 with the correct specifications (not necessarily from BRP/Can-Am though) until warranty is up. Which is in six years, so for the foreseeable future

Everyone is free to decide what they want to run, but I am not going to give Can-Am any more ammunition to deny a warranty claim than necessary that's all.

And that is exactly how they want you to feel. It increases sales of their products and helps their bottom line. This is exactly why the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act was passed. Because manufactures were manipulating the customer with their bait and switch warranties.

It is interesting that when BRP sold a 10/40 weight oil, that is the weight that they recommended for the Spyder.

They have to prove that it was the lubricant that created the damage. They can't just say you didn't use 5/40 so you're toast. There is no way they can do this unless you're cold starting a 10/40 oil in temperatures below 0 degrees. The industry knows exactly what temperature each oil operates at. You can easily find this information. So, what are they going to say? That starting your bike in 60 degree weather with a 10/40 oil did damage? They can't make that stick. If they are going to do that, then using 5/40 oil isn't going to save you. They will just find some other excuse.

The only warranty issues I've seen have been cases where they never intended to honor the warranty anyway. Regardless of how careful the owner was to meet every specification. In those cases, the owner won out if they stuck to their guns.

For example. The DPS on my 2008 GS went out. The dealership said that the failure was caused by the aftermarket cruise control system I installed. It was total huey as the cruise control has nothing whatsoever to do with the power steering. They were just fishing for an excuse not to warranty my DPS. They were hoping I'd just throw up my hands and pay for the repair. (By the way, the dealership makes more money for a customer paid repair than they do for warranty work). I am fully convinced that if I had not installed that CC. They would have found another lame excuse to give me grief.

It's a shame when the paying customer lives in fear of their supplier. But it is very common these days even with a law specifically written to prevent abuse.

 

[jfischer]

And that is exactly how they want you to feel. It increases sales of their products and helps their bottom line. This is exactly why the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act was passed. Because manufactures were manipulating the customer with their bait and switch warranties.

The MM act protects me from having to use Can-Am oil, or using Can-Am dealers for my oil changes. I don't think it gives me cart blanche to use an oil weight that is not called for in the owner's manual without potential repercussions.

Sure, by the letter of the law they may have to prove that not using 5W-40 caused the issue, but I don't have the team of lawyers that BRP does either to fight them in court if it came to that.

So I am going to play it safe and run the recommended oil weight and spec but I will be doing the changes myself. Odds are probably good that I'd never have an issue, but like I said I don't want to give BRP any wiggle room should I have an issue under warranty.

 

[troop]

All motorcycle oils will shear in shared sump applications. Engine/transmission combo's are brutal on motor oils. That is why I will always use a 10w40 or 10w50 motorcycle oil in my Spyder. Doesn't matter if it's Amsoil or not, no 5w40 oils. YMMV ....

 

[BajaRon]

All motorcycle oils will shear in shared sump applications. Engine/transmission combo's are brutal on motor oils. That is why I will always use a 10w40 or 10w50 motorcycle oil in my Spyder. Doesn't matter if it's Amsoil or not, no 5w40 oils. YMMV ....

Have you had it analyzed to see what it is at the end of service?

 

[BajaRon]

The MM act protects me from having to use Can-Am oil, or using Can-Am dealers for my oil changes. I don't think it gives me cart blanche to use an oil weight that is not called for in the owner's manual without potential repercussions.

Sure, by the letter of the law they may have to prove that not using 5W-40 caused the issue, but I don't have the team of lawyers that BRP does either to fight them in court if it came to that.

So I am going to play it safe and run the recommended oil weight and spec but I will be doing the changes myself. Odds are probably good that I'd never have an issue, but like I said I don't want to give BRP any wiggle room should I have an issue under warranty.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say 'Carte Blanche'. You need to use an oil that meets or exceeds BRP's specs. Which a quality 10/40 oil will easily do. If you use an oil that holds up better and lubricates better than XPS, they aren't going to be able to prove it was the problem.

You don't need a team of lawyers, though they are glad that you think so. You can go to small claims court, if it comes to that, which it usually doesn't because BRP knows they can't bring lawyers and they will probably lose. It's not expensive to file and BRP will have to cover those fees if they lose.

I know we are all trying to avoid conflict. And BRP is very happy that you are going to play it safe. It's just that it isn't necessary. That's all I'm saying.

 

[RudyB]

I have been using Amsoil 20/50 78000miles no issues no problems runs great

2017 I don't believe he even has any warranty

 

[BajaRon]

I have been using Amsoil 20/50 78000miles no issues no problems runs great

And you! Rudy! Are on the other end of the scale! I know we've discussed (off site) that in your environment, a 20/50 oil is unnecessarily thick! Now if you live in Las Vegas or Death Valley I can see it. Love you Rudy! Everyone should run what they like best!

 

[troop]

Have you had it analyzed to see what it is at the end of service?

Not personally, no. Lots of 5w40 analysis available to read on bobistheoilguy.com

 

[BajaRon]

Not personally, no. Lots of 5w40 analysis available to read on bobistheoilguy.com

Same brand run in a Spyder for 9,300 miles or better?

Do you have a link to these reports? I'm only finding opinions, not data sheets.

 

[troop]

Same brand run in a Spyder for 9,300 miles or better?

No .. Analysis were all run on shared sump machines. The Spyder transmission wouldn't be be much different than other shared sump transmissions on large cc machines. All of the OCI's I've seen on 5w weight oils all sheared down to very thin weights when viewing the cST viscosity charts. Personally, being in WI, my oil is likely to be changed at the end of the season with approx. 4-5K miles. Sure, a 5w40 oil would likely to be in good shape. Personally, I'll stay with 10w40/50 weights. Amsoil has one of the better rated oils for shear stability. Maybe the 5w40 m/c oil will fare just as well. The majority of 5w40 users are using this oil weight to be "warranty safe". That's all fine and good. That said, I haven't read of an oil related failures here from any 5w40 or 10w40 users...

 

[tflatt]

I use Rotella, Full synthetic 5w 40, The dealership is aware of my preference, for oils, and told me that since it exceeds all requirements there should not be an issue if I have engine problems in the future.

 

[TroubledJuan]

..... I If you are leaving your Spyder outside in sub-zero temps overnight, then yes, you may want a 5w-40 or even 0w-40 lubricant. .....

Since you brought that up, here in Minnesota, I have run AmSoil Metric motorcycle oil 10w-40 in my 5hp snowblower for years...
the cool thing was, it could be -20 out and you could give it a tug of the rope to start it, and there wouldn't be any more resistance than if it were +40 degrees. By the 2nd pull it would start up.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Since you brought that up, here in Minnesota, I have run AmSoil Metric motorcycle oil 10w-40 in my 5hp snowblower for years...
the cool thing was, it could be -20 out and you could give it a tug of the rope to start it, and there wouldn't be any more resistance than if it were +40 degrees. By the 2nd pull it would start up.

Back in the day when many if not most of the 'lower numbered/rated' oils available didn't come with that 'W', and I was far more concerned/involved with that sorta thing, we were told by the various Oil Companies that the 'W' in the oil rating did TWO things:

Firstly, it denoted that the oil had additives in it that would prevent the oil from 'freezing &/or sludging' at sub-zero temperatures; and
Secondly, it indicated that the number the 'W' came after was the 'Winter' or the 'Cold' rating for that oil.​

If you look/spend a bit of time searching the interwebs, you'll probably notice that few oils rated with numbers much higher than about 30 ever have that 'W' in them, altho you can usually quite readily find 25W50 oils, but once the oil ratings get higher than that, the 'W' tends to disappear, just like it has in the Penrite 40-70 Oil shown here:

https://www.repco.com.au/oils-fluid...pr-50-40-70-engine-oil-5l-hpr50005/p/A7960751

So if you live in an area where sub-zero temps are ever encountered, you really should make sure that any oil you use has a 'W' in its rating, ie. 0W30 or 25W50; and if it does, then as TroubledJuan has mentioned above, it should still work when it's cold, even if it might not be all that great until it warms up properly; and when you are discussing &/or asking questions about which oil to use, etc. that 'W' is an important part of the rating, cos the additive package in a 10-40 oil is a very different thing to that in a 10W40 oil! :lecturef_smilie:

Just Sayin' :thumbup:

 

[Stuart1234]

Hi .... I spent my career working for an international oil company in the lubricants technical area. I think it is useful to know where the numbers come from and a little about the tests used to provide that information. I've (hopefully) attached 2 images from the Lubrication Engineer's Manual that has some information on this topic. The viscosity/temperature chart is useful to understand the wide range of the SAE viscosities (30, 50 etc). In fact, the min viscosity in centistokes (cSt) for an SAE 50 grade oil is nearly half the max viscosity for that range. When manufacturers make a multigrade oil (e.g. 10W-40) it is easiest to make one with the top end of the lower viscosity and the bottom end of the higher one so you can expect that the viscosity of the oil at operating temperature will be the lower of the SAE range and this is where the protection is required when the engine is running. The lower number is really only an indication of how hard it is to start. In my opinion it's important to stick with the OEM recommendation for viscosity.

If the JPEG images do not show in this reply, I'll have another go later.

-

 

[Mikey]

opcorn: I think this is the best ever!! And Ron, you know the old saying about a horse and water? :2thumbs: Hang in their man!

 

[2dogs]

FWIW, I read in Popular Mechanics or Mechanics Illustrated years ago that 10W30 was the widest range of oil viscosity (at that time) to use because the additives to create wider viscosities built up in the ring grooves and hastened ring failure and damage. That was back when we, most of us all ran straight 30W. I'm hoping things have improved a little.

 

[BajaRon]

FWIW, I read in Popular Mechanics or Mechanics Illustrated years ago that 10W30 was the widest range of oil viscosity (at that time) to use because the additives to create wider viscosities built up in the ring grooves and hastened ring failure and damage. That was back when we, most of us all ran straight 30W. I'm hoping things have improved a little.

They have. Many of the past consensus ideas about lubricants are no longer applicable, though many still run with them. Now, the only downside to wider viscosity numbers is the reduction in stability and longevity compared to narrower values. Best case scenario is to find the high number you need paired with the highest low number you will need based on your coldest start-up temps. This is the temperature your Spyder is at start-up, not the outside temperature unless your Spyder sits outside.

 

[Stuart1234]

Synthetic oils, such as recommended by BRP for my 2022 Spyder tend to have a much higher Viscosity Index (VI) which is the rate of change of viscosity with temperature. Where mineral based oils have a VI of around 95 or so fully synthetic oils have a VI of 150 - 160. Plus, they can achieve this without the addition of viscosity index improvers which are a molecule that is small when cold and increases in size as the temperature increases, consequently improving the oils viscosity as it warms up. The downside of these molecules is that they are relatively large and can get 'sheared' in operation reducing their effectiveness, and the oil's viscosity. Synthetic oils also have the advantage that they have no wax. It's the wax content of mineral oils that limits its cold starting ability. The refining process removes wax but there is always some remaining.
There is a range of synthetic oil technology - poly alpha olefin (PAO), ester, poly glycol, and others. Some of these are used together to improve performance and additive solubility. Synthetic base oils are more expensive than mineral base oils, so the finished product will be more costly to purchase than those manufactured with mineral oils. Synthetic oils also tend to oxidise less rapidly, and consequently last longer in operation than mineral based oils. As an interesting 'rule of thumb', if the temperature of an oil goes up by 10 deg C, the oxidation rate will double, thereby halving the oils' life.
Synthetic based oils have some good advantages but these need to be weighed against the additional cost. I am using a synthetic oil in my Spyder, as I believe it is worth it.

 

[troop]

Synthetic oils, such as recommended by BRP for my 2022 Spyder tend to have a much higher Viscosity Index (VI) which is the rate of change of viscosity with temperature. Where mineral based oils have a VI of around 95 or so fully synthetic oils have a VI of 150 - 160. Plus, they can achieve this without the addition of viscosity index improvers which are a molecule that is small when cold and increases in size as the temperature increases, consequently improving the oils viscosity as it warms up. The downside of these molecules is that they are relatively large and can get 'sheared' in operation reducing their effectiveness, and the oil's viscosity. Synthetic oils also have the advantage that they have no wax. It's the wax content of mineral oils that limits its cold starting ability. The refining process removes wax but there is always some remaining.
There is a range of synthetic oil technology - poly alpha olefin (PAO), ester, poly glycol, and others. Some of these are used together to improve performance and additive solubility. Synthetic base oils are more expensive than mineral base oils, so the finished product will be more costly to purchase than those manufactured with mineral oils. Synthetic oils also tend to oxidise less rapidly, and consequently last longer in operation than mineral based oils. As an interesting 'rule of thumb', if the temperature of an oil goes up by 10 deg C, the oxidation rate will double, thereby halving the oils' life.
Synthetic based oils have some good advantages but these need to be weighed against the additional cost. I am using a synthetic oil in my Spyder, as I believe it is worth it.

Not sure about Australia, but here in the states, BRP 5w40 oil is "partial synthetic". Likely, at best, it might have 20% synthetic content, but I hardly doubt it. There is no industry standard in the States to specify how much content has to be synthetic in a partial/blend synthetic oil.

 

[Stuart1234]

There are no real rules about using the term 'synthetic' in Australia either. It's very much 'buyer beware'. Synthetic originally meant man-made as in poly alpha olefins (PAO) or alkylated aromatics which are synthesised hydrocarbons, polyglycols, or organic esters. That definition has now been extended to include very heavily treated refined mineral oils that have properties almost as good as PAOs. I think all these except polyglycol can be found in some proportion in synthetic engine oils. I read the label carefully and try to disregard the marketing puffery. The oil I am using is made by a local company, it is 100% synthetic, and it meets the viscosity and quality requirements that BRP mandate.