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BRP Spyder investigation started. What will happen?

So are you saying that no matter how full the tank is, the problem's cause (as you describe) will occur anyway? It will occur with a half, one-quarter, or nearly empty tank?

Seems to me, there would be a specific maximum amount of fuel one could put in the tank to avoid boiling fumes getting to the evap-canister and causing the problem. Otherwise, if I read what you posted correctly, it is going to happen no matter what amount is in the tank, whether nearly empty or nearly over-flowing.

Thanks for your response in advance.

Correct once it boils it boils and fumes will overload the EVAP system regardless of how much fuel is in the tank. Add that to the fact that at stop the purge valve is closed even if idling and for sure at shut off the fumes and gas boiling do not stop for a while. What some of us do is fill up close to home before parking it has helped in my case I have a gas station 1 block away. Nice cool gas will help keep the boiling at bay. I have had some success doing this but not total. On a 90+ day there is a lot of heat soak going on under the Tupperware to dissipate .
 
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So are you saying that no matter how full the tank is, the problem's cause (as you describe) will occur anyway? It will occur with a half, one-quarter, or nearly empty tank?

Seems to me, there would be a specific maximum amount of fuel one could put in the tank to avoid boiling fumes getting to the evap-canister and causing the problem. Otherwise, if I read what you posted correctly, it is going to happen no matter what amount is in the tank, whether nearly empty or nearly over-flowing.

Thanks for your response in advance.

If you ride long enough, the fuel WILL get HOT. It will boil and cause gas fumes. Wrapping the exhaust pipes helps, it takes longer for the fuel to boil. But ride long enough and even wrapped pipes get hot.

Others have tried filling the tank with cool fuel just before parking. They seem to have success. I can't fill every time I go for a ride.

I have had the problem with an almost empty tank. I have had the problem with a nearly full tank. The temperature of the fuel in the tank is the problem.

Think about it. Top of the tank and then ride a few miles home. The tank will no longer be topped off.
Top off and go for a ride. Fuel is being removed from the tank while it heats up and expands. The result is that it is no longer topped off.

Perhaps if you overfilled the tank with hot fuel, and immediately killed the engine, it could cause a problem. But hot fuel already causes the problem.

Again, BRP put a heater under the fuel tank. Park your bike with the fuel already warm and that heater is going to boil the fuel in the tank.

Found this on the 'net:
Catalytic converters...
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 3, align: left"] • [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Are a chemical reactor that use chemical reactions to theoretically change toxic emissions into less harmful emissions [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 3, align: left"] • [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] DO NOT begin to work until their temperature exceeds 290°C (550°F) [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 3, align: left"] • [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] MUST reach their optimum operating temperature of 430°C (806°F) needed to reduce toxic emissions [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Here is something from gypsy_100

icon1.png
Canister Internal Photos
No valves, nothing fancy -- just three ports, two chambers and a passageway between them:



Here's my thoughts on how it functions. The canister is divided into two chambers, about 2/3 and 1/3 -- both filled with activated charcoal. The divider goes from the top to near the bottom but there is a gap at the bottom connecting the two chambers. The tank port and the purge valve port are side by side at the top of the main chamber. The vent port (or drain port) is at the top of the smaller chamber. There is a layer of foam rubber at the bottom that goes under the divider and allows free passage of air or fumes through the foam rubber from one chamber to the other.

When the purge valve is closed (by that I mean not drawing fumes into the engine -- low rpm, idling, not running, etc) the fumes come in from the tank, must go down thru the main chamber, under the divider, up thru the small chamber, and out the port to the long drain hose to the atmosphere. Well and good. Hopefully they get absorbed along the way. Except we know better.

Now, when the purge valve opens (higher rpm, drawing fumes into the engine), it seems the first thing it would do is draw fumes directly from the tank as the two ports are side by side. (There were filters over both those ports to prevent contamination, or anything being drawn into the engine by the vacuum. I removed the filters for the photos.) If the engine created enough vacuum, then it would start drawing air in from the vent hose in the reverse of the flow described above. Air would come up the long drain hose, down the small chamber, up the large chamber and into the purge port drawn by engine vacuum. Well and good. Except at the rate the tank generates vapor when hot, the second part of that equation may never happen. The purge vacuum may just draw vapor from the tank, maybe never even keeping up with the rate of generation, and certainly not cleansing the charcoal. So when you shut off, or the valve closes, you are defeated. The fumes pass thru the “full” charcoal and out the hose.

In my case, I am certain there was never any liquid sloshed into the canister. The charcoal was totally dry, the foam rubber totally dry with no signs of liquid anywhere. If liquid had been in that canister, I would have seen it. I had bad fumes right before the canister was removed but the canister was totally dry. In my case, I'm sure the volume of fumes just overwhelm the small canister and go out the bottom of the hose. Since the canister is warm on the 2011's and the hose is warm, the fumes do not condense inside but get pushed down the vent hose and when they hit the cold air at the bottom, they condense and cause the drips. On my 2011, the hose from the tank to the canister has a 90-degree fitting on the tank, then rises vertically at least three inches over about a foot or more of horizontal length before turning down to the canister. I personally believe that fuel would not slosh thru a 90-degree fitting and then go uphill all that distance through a small diameter hose. Now if the tank were overfilled and subject to thermal expansion, I could imagine fuel being forced into the hose but without accurate knowledge of the headspace built into the tank and the degree of expansion, I can't say if that is likely or not. In my case, I am sure that did not happen. Your situation and your opinion may be different.

Staying away from controversy, I hope this at least helps with understanding what's inside that mystical canister.​
Dave
Thanks for your write up on the evap. canister. Great job.

The only time I smell gas on my 2011 RS-S SE5 is when it's been running a hour or more and I park it for 5 min. with less than 3 bars of gas in 90+ deg. heat. First think I do is I remove the gas cap from and let the pressure out. I think it's better to let gas fumes out of top of Spyder than under it. Also if I am going into be in heavy traffic, I keep more than 1/2 tank of gas and if it's moving to slowly I put off to the side and let it cool down. That's IMHO


Mike
 
Didn't the early spyders have bullet cats in the exhaust? Obviously a bullet cat and better Y pipe for the RT would help. Not in the exhaust but in the same place as the big monster now is.:dontknow: Sorta like a cat bypass with a bullet.
 
My gas boil didn't stop til I added the JT filter and created all that extra air room.


I moved my canister forward and higher at the same time.


No more fuel boil, no more fuel smell.


My pipes were wrapped before this which helped the heat feel, but I still had fuel boil/smell.
 
The number 0.001346 is the proportion (10/7429). The percent is 0.1346% which is between one seventh and one eighth of one percent.

13% of 7429 is 945 fires out of 7429. My decimal point and % are correct. Here we are talking about 10 fires out of 7429.

The proportion is the same as the %.
 
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13% of 7429 is 945 fires out of 7429. I believe my decimal point and % are correct. Here we are talking about 10 fires out of 7429.

The proportion is the same as the %.

Sorry AK but on this one you have to stand corrected. The percentage is the proportion times 100. For example, 9 out of 10. The proportion is 0.90 (9 divided by 10); the percentage is 90% (0.90 times 100). Or think of something that's 100%. 10 out of 10 gives you a ratio of 1. But the percentage is not 1, it's 100%.

Trust me -- two engineering degrees and married to a math major with a degree in computer science as well. All that useless knowledge has to be good for something!
 
You just hurt my brain. :(


.

You can relax now. Those that want re-interpretation or revision of the statistics I mentioned, can do them on their own. I tried to keep it simple, but you can see it kind of took an interesting turn--just like a lot of threads do. :thumbup:
 
Here is something from gypsy_100

icon1.png
Canister Internal Photos
No valves, nothing fancy -- just three ports, two chambers and a passageway between them:



Here's my thoughts on how it functions. The canister is divided into two chambers, about 2/3 and 1/3 -- both filled with activated charcoal. The divider goes from the top to near the bottom but there is a gap at the bottom connecting the two chambers. The tank port and the purge valve port are side by side at the top of the main chamber. The vent port (or drain port) is at the top of the smaller chamber. There is a layer of foam rubber at the bottom that goes under the divider and allows free passage of air or fumes through the foam rubber from one chamber to the other.

When the purge valve is closed (by that I mean not drawing fumes into the engine -- low rpm, idling, not running, etc) the fumes come in from the tank, must go down thru the main chamber, under the divider, up thru the small chamber, and out the port to the long drain hose to the atmosphere. Well and good. Hopefully they get absorbed along the way. Except we know better.

Now, when the purge valve opens (higher rpm, drawing fumes into the engine), it seems the first thing it would do is draw fumes directly from the tank as the two ports are side by side. (There were filters over both those ports to prevent contamination, or anything being drawn into the engine by the vacuum. I removed the filters for the photos.) If the engine created enough vacuum, then it would start drawing air in from the vent hose in the reverse of the flow described above. Air would come up the long drain hose, down the small chamber, up the large chamber and into the purge port drawn by engine vacuum. Well and good. Except at the rate the tank generates vapor when hot, the second part of that equation may never happen. The purge vacuum may just draw vapor from the tank, maybe never even keeping up with the rate of generation, and certainly not cleansing the charcoal. So when you shut off, or the valve closes, you are defeated. The fumes pass thru the “full” charcoal and out the hose.

In my case, I am certain there was never any liquid sloshed into the canister. The charcoal was totally dry, the foam rubber totally dry with no signs of liquid anywhere. If liquid had been in that canister, I would have seen it. I had bad fumes right before the canister was removed but the canister was totally dry. In my case, I'm sure the volume of fumes just overwhelm the small canister and go out the bottom of the hose. Since the canister is warm on the 2011's and the hose is warm, the fumes do not condense inside but get pushed down the vent hose and when they hit the cold air at the bottom, they condense and cause the drips. On my 2011, the hose from the tank to the canister has a 90-degree fitting on the tank, then rises vertically at least three inches over about a foot or more of horizontal length before turning down to the canister. I personally believe that fuel would not slosh thru a 90-degree fitting and then go uphill all that distance through a small diameter hose. Now if the tank were overfilled and subject to thermal expansion, I could imagine fuel being forced into the hose but without accurate knowledge of the headspace built into the tank and the degree of expansion, I can't say if that is likely or not. In my case, I am sure that did not happen. Your situation and your opinion may be different.

Staying away from controversy, I hope this at least helps with understanding what's inside that mystical canister.​

Thanks for going back and digging out my old post. I'm glad SOMEBODY read it!
 
Not being cryptic, but most of you seem more interested in adding airflow to a water cooled engine, slapping the latest home depot crap on their machine and are afraid of either voiding a warranty or having to spend money that you feel BRP should to make it right. Not that I disagree...but that's another topic....

Maybe someone should start another thread as this is going off topic. Sorry OP.

I'll start with a question. Who here has checked the tuning on their machine? Either having it professionally dyno tuned or with a simple AFR gauge.

Daves comments is one of the reasons I really don't know if I want to go into all of this....
Drew,

Most of the people on this forum are interested in fixing the problem. Period. YES we are looking at heat and airflow because that seems to BE the problem. What you see when you take the cowlings off is a long, extremely hot, transverse exhaust header from the front cylinder running the entire length of the engine compartment and then almost bumping into the gas tank before it makes a 90 deg turn. AND we see a cowling so tight that there is absolutely no room for proper air flow under there - hence the suggested fixes like JT's air filter to allow room to dispense the heat. If it takes crap from Home Depot to help remedy these perceived problems (like exhaust wrap for the headers and reflective heat tape for the panels) then YES we'll buy it and stick it on the machine. And being concerned about voiding an extended 3-year warranty that someone paid good money for is valid concern for most folks - why shouldn't it be?

You seem to know what you are talking about, so if you have better ideas, then why are you reluctant to share them? (Again searches of your posts did not yield a whole lot on this subject.) The average owner does not have access to a dyno tuner, and would also not think of utilizing an Air/Fuel ratio gauge, as it seems a reasonable assumption that BRP would know how to tune their own engine, that they have been producing for many years. (But perhaps you know something the rest of us don't about that.)

The reason Dave mistakenly quoted Jerbear's message was because someone referred the link to that post to me when I was looking for links to things YOU'VE posted.

The reason you are getting the kind of comments here that you have taken offense to, is simply because people are frustrated. You make a post in this thread saying that you have the answers and that no one will listen to you. So AGAIN, if you have answers, then I would encourage you to start a new thread and let folks know what they are. I guarantee you that if the answers make sense, then they will be greatly appreciated. And that people will listen and discuss it rationally with you.
 
I read everything Gypsy, don't always comment despite what people think looking at my post count. I don't just throw out random comments to make a post like you know who. :roflblack:
 
Sorry AK but on this one you have to stand corrected. The percentage is the proportion times 100. For example, 9 out of 10. The proportion is 0.90 (9 divided by 10); the percentage is 90% (0.90 times 100). Or think of something that's 100%. 10 out of 10 gives you a ratio of 1. But the percentage is not 1, it's 100%.

Trust me -- two engineering degrees and married to a math major with a degree in computer science as well. All that useless knowledge has to be good for something!

Thank you for the lesson on semantics and the finer points of proportion and percentage. Guess I should have used the word proportion instead of percentage in my calculations above.

The numbers explaining the information as I presented it, are correct.
 
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My gas boil didn't stop til I added the JT filter and created all that extra air room.
I moved my canister forward and higher at the same time.
No more fuel boil, no more fuel smell.
My pipes were wrapped before this which helped the heat feel, but I still had fuel boil/smell.
We all experience the excessive heat, but I wonder why some of us experience the fuel boil/vapor smell/dripping gas problem and others do not. I guess what I'm REALLY wondering is if some of the machines are different than others, and more prone to the problem, ...or if the problem is entirely universal and some of us are just not riding long enough, in hot enough weather, to experience it. :dontknow:
 
We all experience the excessive heat, but I wonder why some of us experience the fuel boil/vapor smell/dripping gas problem and others do not. I guess what I'm REALLY wondering is if some of the machines are different than others, and more prone to the problem, ...or if the problem is entirely universal and some of us are just not riding long enough, in hot enough weather, to experience it. :dontknow:


I think some are just not keen to it.

Every vehicle I have ever owned I know as much as possible about...if I dive into a corner at 140 mph plus I want to know EXACTLY what brake pads I have, what temps they can handle, the torque on the bolts, the lug nut torque, my tire pressures, etc etc etc....

Get my point?

Some just jump on and expect everything to work right....
 
Thanks for going back and digging out my old post. I'm glad SOMEBODY read it!

Thank You for doing that work it just re enforces the problem is not over filling and dumping gas into the canister, I still believe it cannot happen by over filling the tank.
 
No gas vapor or smell on my 2013 STL, my 09 GS had this issue from the first day I owned it, I really don't care about statistics, one on fire is too many and my currant spyder definitely has the boiling fuel problem, I assume that's how I got the new 2014 panels at no charge from BRP Care, never had an issue with fuel lines either, I'm thrilled that the NHTSA has launched another investigation and it's about time, I filed my complaint with them right away, BRP needs to fix the problems with these bikes!
 
We all experience the excessive heat, but I wonder why some of us experience the fuel boil/vapor smell/dripping gas problem and others do not. I guess what I'm REALLY wondering is if some of the machines are different than others, and more prone to the problem, ...or if the problem is entirely universal and some of us are just not riding long enough, in hot enough weather, to experience it. :dontknow:

I think some are just not keen to it.

Every vehicle I have ever owned I know as much as possible about...if I dive into a corner at 140 mph plus I want to know EXACTLY what brake pads I have, what temps they can handle, the torque on the bolts, the lug nut torque, my tire pressures, etc etc etc....

Some just jump on and expect everything to work right....

My personal opinion, purely opinion, is that there's some truth to both. The reason I think there is variation is as follows: My wife and I are both sensitive to organic smells and gasoline is no exception. We never had a problem on my 2011 RT other than trivial fumes when it was really hot (90F) and we shut it down at the end of a ride. Then it produced a few drops of condensation and some fumes. Then around 25K, something changed. We started noticing it more. Last fall on a ride down the Natchez Trace to MS, it became really bad. A few days in the 90's but mostly in the low 80's and we could smell it every time we stopped for a light; shutting down and sitting there it was pretty bad. The dealer went thru everything, even with BRP on the phone step-by-step, and BRP's conclusion was "that's the way it is". At that point, I paid to change the canister and purge valve. I felt I had to try something. As I expected, it made no difference in fumes, and cutting the canister apart confirmed it was perfect inside. Then I wrapped the pipes. Made a significant difference and this year until now it was "acceptable". Then I got a P0174 code for #2 running lean. Had that a while back and dealer thought it was a MAP sensor tube leaking. Now it came back and stayed. He found codes in memory for both cylinders although primarily #2. The point of this digression is that he replaced both O2 sensors under warranty. The codes have not reappeared in limited riding but the fumes have come back in spades. Changing the sensors has clearly made the fumes worse in my opinion. Or something else that was touched at the same time.

I think if BRP could figure out why some bikes are worse than others, they'd have it solved. I'm not saying it's the sensors as that may be coincidence as the tech was in there checking everything out before replacing the sensors so maybe he unintentionally changed or disturbed something else. I've checked everything I can and it all seems fine. But since the sensors are the final control over mixture, if they were not perfectly consistent from sensor to sensor, they certainly could cause some bikes to run lean and others rich. And there's no way to check them for accuracy for a DIY'er or even the dealer.

Just a wild theory but the main point is I have seen variation in my bike so I think it's reasonable to think there's variation bike-to-bike.
 
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