BRP Spyder investigation started. What will happen?

[gypsy_100]

Facts of the Investigation

The NHTSA investigation summary states:

"In the past 19 months, BRP has conducted three safety recalls to address defects that could result in a fire on the subject vehicles (12V-581, 12V-582, and 13V-386). Recently ODI became aware of two fires (both occurring within 10 days of the opening of this investigation). These recent fires appear to be unrelated to the issues covered by the previously released safety recalls. The first fire, involving a MY 2011 Spyder RT used as a traffic enforcement vehicle by the Morgantown, WV police department, occurred on 7-20-14 and is documented in consumer complaint 10615679. The second, involving a MY 2013 Spyder RT SE5, occurred in the Mojave desert region of California on 7-26-14. ODI became aware of this incident through a posting (with photos) on www.Spyderlovers.com. The Office of Defects Investigation is opening this Preliminary Evaluation (PE) to gather more information about these fires, their origin, and their cause."

Of note is that the Morgantown incident was a 2011 RT not a 2013. Also of note is that the ODI took notice of the second recent fire by viewing SpyderLovers and seeing the photos!

Now, looking at the official Morgantown complaint with NHTSA, it states:

"Officer was operating vehicle on a city street approaching and intersection. Posted speed was 25 mph and officer was decelerating and felt heat rising from beneath the vehicle. Officer observed flames coming from the engine area and moved the vehicle to the side of the road and got off before being injured. Within seconds the vehicle was fully engulfed and flames caught a yard and two nearby trees on fire. The fire department determined cause of fire was fuel related. City mechanic examined the remains and determined the fuel system was the source of the fire and also found a recall on the vehicle after checking online. Recall notice was not received by city maintenance. Vehicle was a total loss, including all police equipment on the vehicle."

Of note here is that the city mechanic was not aware of the recall and had not received notice of it. That recall would be the gas cap. If one wants to speculate, that certainly looks suspicious -- the gas cap fix was issued specifically to prevent fires. The official NHTSA recall notice states:

"SUMMARY:
Bombardier Recreational Products Inc. (BRP) is recalling certain model year 2008-2012 Can-Am Spyder GS, RS, and RT series vehicles. The fuel cap may not fit onto the fuel tank filler neck, preventing it from sealing properly.

CONSEQUENCE:
If the fuel cap does not seal properly, it may leak fuel vapors. Fuel vapors in the presence of an ignition source could result in a fire and personal injury.

REMEDY:
BRP will notify owners and send them a replacement fuel cap, free of charge. The safety recall is expected to begin in mid-January 2013. Owners may contact BRP AT 1-888-638-5397."

FYI

 

[Jeriatric]

Thanks for the info.

Fuel related 'could be a lot of things'. Was it the gas cap? If, they thought it was. Why didn't they say as much?

 

[gypsy_100]

Fuel related 'could be a lot of things'. Was it the gas cap? If, they thought it was. Why didn't they say as much?

I agree completely. Seems very inconsistent on their part. Essentially saying "Oh, we think it was fuel related. By the way, we didn't replace the gas cap."

Equally inconsistent is NHTSA's statement in their investigation summary: "These recent fires appear to be unrelated to the issues covered by the previously released safety recalls." How can they make that blanket statement when the police dept admits they didn't replace the gas cap? NHTSA should at least be considering the cap as a possible source.

 

[robmorg]

While an inline motor with a front mounted header typically will have less overall heat to the rider than a vtwin, being a vtwin with the current exhaust design around the motor isnt the issue. They have been running exhausts that way since the introduction of vtwin motors. It's not exhaust routing or exhaust heat that is causing the issue.
There is an issue, but it is not in the physical design of the motor or exhaust going around it in any way.

PK,
I've posted my thoughts on here multiple times on what it is and as usual it falls on deaf ears. Most everyone with heat issues would rather come on here and cry like a bunch of babies claiming that they spent 30k+ on a bike and brp should make it right, they aren't fixing it at their expense...blah blah blah...

The heat ISSUE for those that HAVE listened is gone. I've worked with 8 owners now (6 are 13' machines) that were looking for a resolution even if it cost them a few bucks. The fix costs just under 1k and doesn't involve wrapping pipes, new plastic panels, foam, bubblegum or band aids that others are doing.

BRP knows what the issue is. However, it involves admitting a mistake that will only make most continue to cry and complain. They are also limited to regulations that we as consumers are not in regards to changes. Same song, different dance.

Flame suit on. I'm done.

Drew,

Since your flame suit is on, you must be expecting some heat from that post. So as to not disappoint you, I'll give you a little

....

What you just posted was an extremely frustrating message. Why be so cryptic? If you've discovered what the problem is and have helped others to fix it, then why not include some links in your post to help a few more folks who will listen? You say you have posted your thoughts here multiple times, and no one will listen to you. ...that everybody just wants to complain instead.

I, for one, am NOT complaining (well, to you I am, but not about BRP) but have taken steps to correct my heat problem, based on my own thoughts, AND lots of helpful information that others have posted here - ALL of them apparently contrary to your beliefs and ideas, since they mostly deal with exhaust routing and limited space beneath the cowlings, etc. So I would very much love to see what you think the problem is, and what you have done to resolve it, and what it is that BRP knows, etc. Since you didn't give any constructive hints in the above message I went searching.

You have 1700 posts here. I looked at a couple hundred of them and couldn't find anything germane to this subject. (I'm sure they're there, but 1700 is a LOT of posts to look through.) You have started 28 threads on this forum. Again, I could be wrong, but NONE of them seem to have anything to do with this problem that I can see. So I searched for messages you've posted containing the word "heat". There was one, where you used "heat tape" to fix a wiring problem in a ZX14 rear fender.

IF you have some insight into the problem, I for one would indeed listen to you, as would many others. But you have to give us just a little guidance and insight as to what you are thinking - or at least how to find it. How about sharing some pertinent links to threads where you have posted what it is that you can offer on the subject at hand?

Hope that wasn't too much heat. Don't know how you feel, but I feel better now.

Still like to hear what constructive things you have to say though, and what you think the real problem is. :thumbup:

 

[wyliec]

robmorg

Try this thread, post #16:



http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?66883-The-quot-Dragon-quot-is-dead&highlight=heat

I just noticed you were in involved with that thread. The fixes mentioned there didn't help?

 

[billybovine]

I debunked that myth quite awhile ago. Overfilling does NOT cause the problem.
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...Fixing-the-Horrid-Fuel-Smell&highlight=horrid

The problem is too much gas vapor caused by too much heat to the gas tank.

The air filter box restricts air flow. The side panels don't allow air flow. The hot exhaust pipes are under the tupperware where no air flows. The evaporative canister is under the tupperware where no air flows. The Catalytic converter is under the gas tank. BRP actually put a heater under the tank!

The question is not does overfilling cause the problem. The question can you overfill it? I went through the whole long link thread you gave and it does not answer either question. One thing I did not read is if you tested the purge system to make sure it actually works.

 

[billybovine]

I fill mine with the tip in at least 1" and still get a splash and stop. I can barely see any gas in the fill hole at that point probably 1/2 -1" below the fill hole.

You don't over fill yours but advocate to others that it you can and it's not a problem?

 

[adlereins]

It's all about perception. Through these posts and other sources, I perceive that BRP Spyders have heat/gas fume related problems.
Even though the actual number of incidents may be small, I still remain uneasy about Spyders in general because of this perception. Now I find myself thinking more about the Polaris Slingshot than I had previously. I wonder how many are thinking the same thing and how those thoughts are going to impact sales of Spyders and Slingshots. The Slingshot may have even worse problems but there is no information on that and therefore no perception of problems. Of course all of this is merely my perception ( IMHO) :roflblack::roflblack:
Take Care,
Allen B.

 

[robmorg]

Try this thread, post #16:



http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?66883-The-quot-Dragon-quot-is-dead&highlight=heat

I just noticed you were in involved with that thread. The fixes mentioned there didn't help?

Thanks, wyliec. I've said a few times that Jerbear's thread is one of the most helpful on this subject. I mentioned Jerbear's thread in my thread about steps I took to resolve the seat heat problem.

I did not pay much attention to the "custom crafted flow directors inside the swoop area". (Are you saying that was Drew's contribution?) I didn't follow up on that because that dealt mostly with "right foot heat" from the radiator, which IMO was already escaping fairly well through the two side vents near the right foot. I did not want to impair that flow in any way. I considered JT's air filter enhancement, but in the end rejected the idea for reasons I mentioned in my thread. The rest of Jerbear's suggestions I DID utilize, (along with wrapping the headers, which Jerbear did not do), and they yielded very successful results in my case.

But I have to admit that Drew peaked my interest in his recent post, especially as it concerns the subject of THIS thread. I do hope he'll let others know what he's talking about.

 

[DrewNJ]

Not being cryptic, but most of you seem more interested in adding airflow to a water cooled engine, slapping the latest home depot crap on their machine and are afraid of either voiding a warranty or having to spend money that you feel BRP should to make it right. Not that I disagree...but that's another topic....

Maybe someone should start another thread as this is going off topic. Sorry OP.

I'll start with a question. Who here has checked the tuning on their machine? Either having it professionally dyno tuned or with a simple AFR gauge.

 

[Magdave]

You don't over fill yours but advocate to others that it you can and it's not a problem?

I am saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to overfill it period. You would have gas on the floor long before it reaches the vent hole.

 

[Magdave]

Not being cryptic, but most of you seem more interested in adding airflow to a water cooled engine, slapping the latest home depot crap on their machine and are afraid of either voiding a warranty or having to spend money that you feel BRP should to make it right. Not that I disagree...but that's another topic....

Maybe someone should start another thread as this is going off topic. Sorry OP.

I'll start with a question. Who here has checked the tuning on their machine? Either having it professionally dyno tuned or with a simple AFR gauge.

I disagree Drew it is not going off topic and is doing just fine. All suggestions for fixes should be investigated by BRP and they are popping up in this thread. Cryptic attempts to veer it off without links should be ignored. Should we be checking the tuning? There is no software to do anything about it beside the PC5. Should buyers of a $25-30k machine be required to buy that for them to be tuned right? Maybe you should start a thread on it Drew. Her is an excerpt of Jerbear's suggestions. Pretty extreme to me

" Added custom crafted flow directors inside the swoop area for vertical and horizontal air routing - to and out the upper vent. Cleaned the fan side of the swoop with isopropyl alcohol and laid down sticky back 2000 degree heat shield(required making a few paper templates to insure a quality job). Like laying tile

Without doubt, this has stopped heat soak(of the heavy plastic swoop)from the constant 200 degree air being sucked/pushed through the radiator and transmitted to the right foot. Note: I only covered the plastic of the swoop. Leaving all the factory cuts open and unrestricted.

Another heat related change was the addition of 4 oz Redline Water Wetter. Best estimate - 10 degree drop in water temp. Fan kicks on later now than it ever has. I have an indicator that tells me any time the fan is running.

Seat crack heat. Using double sided tape I placed 2 custom cut four inch pieces of soft foam pipe wrap(think air conditioning foam wrap). Two pieces were used because of the left right panel junction. Exactally how deep to place them so they make proper contact when the seat is lowered requires a deliberate approach, or the foam will tear. Properly done, it works perfectly.

Last, was the addition of JT's air filter(or the removal of a lot of plastic). You've likely read all about his filter system.

That's how I slayed the dragon. If anyone else is Interested and would like to see what and how? Perhaps finless and I can get together and video it. I, would not have a clue how to do that, and don't care to learn."

Now back to the topic at hand......

 

[DrewNJ]

Your miss-quoting me. I never said anything like that. I don't recommend that.

 

[DrewNJ]

Daves comments is one of the reasons I really don't know if I want to go into all of this....

 

[Magdave]

Daves comments is one of the reasons I really don't know if I want to go into all of this....

I apologize Drew that was quote from Jerbear not you . I do suggest you post what you did to "fix" the problems so we can quit guessing. :dontknow:

 

[DrewNJ]

I tried to search through Drew's posts for heat related fixes and didn't come up with much either.
So I suppose that he, for his own reasons, wants to keep his fixes proprietary, which of course is his right.

I'm sure that if he were to publish his results with the numerous owner's he has saved from the heat dragon then he could be become a sponser and sell his expertise to many.

But the caveat here is there is quite a gulf between claiming to have done a thing and having done a thing.

Wow...ok, was never looking to sell anything. Just a hobby. But anyway...good luck guys!

 

[Magdave]

Here is something from gypsy_100

Canister Internal Photos

No valves, nothing fancy -- just three ports, two chambers and a passageway between them:



Here's my thoughts on how it functions. The canister is divided into two chambers, about 2/3 and 1/3 -- both filled with activated charcoal. The divider goes from the top to near the bottom but there is a gap at the bottom connecting the two chambers. The tank port and the purge valve port are side by side at the top of the main chamber. The vent port (or drain port) is at the top of the smaller chamber. There is a layer of foam rubber at the bottom that goes under the divider and allows free passage of air or fumes through the foam rubber from one chamber to the other.

When the purge valve is closed (by that I mean not drawing fumes into the engine -- low rpm, idling, not running, etc) the fumes come in from the tank, must go down thru the main chamber, under the divider, up thru the small chamber, and out the port to the long drain hose to the atmosphere. Well and good. Hopefully they get absorbed along the way. Except we know better.

Now, when the purge valve opens (higher rpm, drawing fumes into the engine), it seems the first thing it would do is draw fumes directly from the tank as the two ports are side by side. (There were filters over both those ports to prevent contamination, or anything being drawn into the engine by the vacuum. I removed the filters for the photos.) If the engine created enough vacuum, then it would start drawing air in from the vent hose in the reverse of the flow described above. Air would come up the long drain hose, down the small chamber, up the large chamber and into the purge port drawn by engine vacuum. Well and good. Except at the rate the tank generates vapor when hot, the second part of that equation may never happen. The purge vacuum may just draw vapor from the tank, maybe never even keeping up with the rate of generation, and certainly not cleansing the charcoal. So when you shut off, or the valve closes, you are defeated. The fumes pass thru the “full” charcoal and out the hose.

In my case, I am certain there was never any liquid sloshed into the canister. The charcoal was totally dry, the foam rubber totally dry with no signs of liquid anywhere. If liquid had been in that canister, I would have seen it. I had bad fumes right before the canister was removed but the canister was totally dry. In my case, I'm sure the volume of fumes just overwhelm the small canister and go out the bottom of the hose. Since the canister is warm on the 2011's and the hose is warm, the fumes do not condense inside but get pushed down the vent hose and when they hit the cold air at the bottom, they condense and cause the drips. On my 2011, the hose from the tank to the canister has a 90-degree fitting on the tank, then rises vertically at least three inches over about a foot or more of horizontal length before turning down to the canister. I personally believe that fuel would not slosh thru a 90-degree fitting and then go uphill all that distance through a small diameter hose. Now if the tank were overfilled and subject to thermal expansion, I could imagine fuel being forced into the hose but without accurate knowledge of the headspace built into the tank and the degree of expansion, I can't say if that is likely or not. In my case, I am sure that did not happen. Your situation and your opinion may be different.

Staying away from controversy, I hope this at least helps with understanding what's inside that mystical canister.​

 

[PMK]

@ MAGDAVE...each time I scroll, your siggy picture rolls by. Almost as if that poor flat tracker is the poster child of BRP bikes with heat issues.

PK

 

[Craniac]

The question is not does overfilling cause the problem. The question can you overfill it? I went through the whole long link thread you gave and it does not answer either question. One thing I did not read is if you tested the purge system to make sure it actually works.

After installing the two fuel filters in the evap line. I intentionally topped off the tank. There was some liquid in the first filter but never any liquid in the second filter. But the bike still spewed gas fumes to the point of liquid dripping from the hose.

I have relocated my evap canister and added a second one. Both higher than the original overflow line. So it would be VERY hard (impossible) for liquid fuel to escape the tank and fill the evap canister. Bike still spews fumes and drips.

Too much heat causes the gas to boil. The fumes leave the tank and enter the evap canister. Any fumes caught by the canister remain until the bike cools, condensing back to liquid. The fumes not caught by the canister enter the atmosphere. As they hit the cooler outside air, some of the fumes condense back to liquid and form the drops/puddles under the bike. Many of the fumes remain in a gaseous state which is much more flammable than liquid. These gasses are heavier than air and form a dangerous, invisible "puddle" under the bike that is very flammable. Static electricity could start a fire.

The recent fire in Twentynine Palms could have been a result of static. I lived there an know how much static electricity forms on a hot/dry day. I did not say that static WAS the cause, just that it could have been the cause. I live in a hot/dry environment and fear what may happen when the entire garage floor is covered in invisible fumes and the static builds up.

Purge valve: I asked the dealer to check the valve and was informed that unless BUDS showed a code, it was working.

 

[Illinois Boy]

I debunked that myth quite awhile ago. Overfilling does NOT cause the problem.
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...Fixing-the-Horrid-Fuel-Smell&highlight=horrid

The problem is too much gas vapor caused by too much heat to the gas tank.

The air filter box restricts air flow. The side panels don't allow air flow. The hot exhaust pipes are under the tupperware where no air flows. The evaporative canister is under the tupperware where no air flows. The Catalytic converter is under the gas tank. BRP actually put a heater under the tank!

So are you saying that no matter how full the tank is, the problem's cause (as you describe) will occur anyway? It will occur with a half, one-quarter, or nearly empty tank?

Seems to me, there would be a specific maximum amount of fuel one could put in the tank to avoid boiling fumes getting to the evap-canister and causing the problem. Otherwise, if I read what you posted correctly, it is going to happen no matter what amount is in the tank, whether nearly empty or nearly over-flowing.

Thanks for your response in advance.