BRP Spyder investigation started. What will happen?

[Dmatney73]

I have burned my right leg several times with the heat coming from radiator

 

[ranps1]

Perceptions verus Reality

This is just my .0001 cents opinion as a '13 STL owner waiting for my '14 panels to arrive after close to 2 months.

The problem with all of the previous recalls and the current situation is that, in every recall issue it was to deal with heat/fumes "possibly/potentially" causing a fire. I am with Ann and others here in that BRP was hoping the band aids would buy them time to work it out. The resolution for 2014 was that they introduced a "new" body style. But this wasn't simply adding a nice, sleeker, sportier look. The new body panels had a very specific and defined purpose. The removal of potential fuel fumes and heat containment. The new style had a dramatic effect on this issue. The change made it practically disappear. They even went so far as to boldly state this in the advertising for the 2014 line. The original cause, a poorly designed CAT/exhaust system remains. With the new venting, again, they have bought more time to engineer a better exhaust system.

But this is where their train left the tracks. With 52k units out there over 7 years and only now in 2014 with the RT line has this problem been successfully solved. They left the previous models/owners to hang in the breeze until the NHTSA called them on the carpet again, giving them an out since, hey look, we were trying to fix this problem all along. In so doing they have given a perception of a defective and dangerous product not just to the previous owners but to the opening trike market as well.

Perceptions are like viruses. They grow and infect the public at large in sometimes subtle ways. I remember the Bridgestone/Firestone fiasco. Just look at our Spyder community. Most of us don't have a problem but we think about it, a lot. It's in the back of minds. Even members who don't post think about it. And other motorcycle manufactures WILL think about it. And spread the virus happily. BRP doesn't have the luxury to wait this out for 16 months as Jeff stated and I believe correctly. 16 months puts them into the 2016 lineup. This will be too late to undo the damage this virus will cause. They need to provide the vaccine now, quickly. They need to make this go away. It will cost dearly but with accepting responsibility, fixing the problem and running an effective advertising campaign to remove or at least minimize the perceptions with the public and dealers will go a long way in restoring confidence in the Spyder line and BRP as a company that takes its customers concerns and safety seriously.

The virus is out in the general public BRP. Do you provide a cure or do you let it run its course and sicken/kill its host?

 

[quadfather]

ignoring all these issues must be why I hear them called [ CANT-AM ] in stead of CAN-AM . we'll see how they respond.

 

[jcthorne]

The virus in out in the general public BRP. Do you provide a cure or do you let it run its course and sicken/kill its host?

Be careful what you ask for. If they take the GM approach, they will issue a 'Do Not Ride' order until they have a fix. Could take months. During which time you will need to park the bike. You will not be able to drive it, will not be able to sell it. You will be stuck until they decide what to do. If you ignore the warning letter, your insurance company has valid grounds to deny any claims as a result of your willing negligence. The 13 owners would REALLY be stuck then. Essentially reducing what low value the bikes have now to ZERO for a long time.

This whole situation is very bad. I seriously doubt BRP will come up with a satisfactory repair to alleviate the problems and what they do come up with is likely to leave those of us that have tried to repair on our own out in the cold. I can see this whole situation getting UGLY in a big hurry if BRP does not do something right sooner rather than later.

 

[tigerdr]

I trust BRP to find quickly a solution resolving this bad situation and that solution will satisfied the NHTSA and Transport Canada. BRP never let down his customers owners of Ski-Doo, BRP ATV or Sea-Doo. It will be the same for Spyder owners.

 

[Bob Denman]

But without the actual numbers; your post is meaningless... :banghead:

 

[robmorg]

Be careful what you ask for. If they take the GM approach, they will issue a 'Do Not Ride' order until they have a fix. Could take months. During which time you will need to park the bike. You will not be able to drive it, will not be able to sell it. You will be stuck until they decide what to do. If you ignore the warning letter, your insurance company has valid grounds to deny any claims as a result of your willing negligence. The 13 owners would REALLY be stuck then. Essentially reducing what low value the bikes have now to ZERO for a long time.

Now, THERE'S a disheartening thought. :yikes: Man, I hope that doesn't happen!!

In truth, I don't think things will get that bad, but you are correct in that the longer this drags on, there is more of a potential for things to get ugly. In truth, it's currently the huge discounts on 2013 units that are dragging down the value of the previously owned ones. I'm hopeful that will level out - especially since the NHTSA (and therefore the press) has not singled out the 2013's in the investigation.

 

[billybovine]

Ann, JT and I are trying to debunk that myth started by BRP. If you fill till it over flows there is still several inches of head space in the tank for expansion. Some say the sloshing will make that happen. If that were true then any amount of gas would do that during acceleration and stops. The cause has nothing to do with how much gas you fill it with it has to do with gas boiling in the tank at any level and when you stop the purge is closed and the fumes are pumped through the canister. A too small poorly designed system with very little insulation (see 2nd pic). The small hole on top is where the vent hose is attached.

If you want to debunk a myth then you need hard facts. Not a picture of a gas tank and the statement that you have a couple inches of space. You may be right but that is not proof. What is the actual space between the fuel at max fill and the vent opening in the rollover valve?
From actual measurements and estimating the depth of the flange on top of the tank and estimating the length of the rollover vent valve. I have calculated 1/8 inch space for thermal expansion before blocking the escape of vapour.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

IT MAY BE THIS REASON

That would be my bet as well. I'm glad the the NHTSA decided to investigate all model years and not just 2013 where recent fires were an issue. But as slow as most government bureaucracies work, I cannot imagine any findings being published before at least 9-12 months go by. Then, depending on the recommendations in the final report, and the potential cost, I'd expect BRP to possibly challenge it the courts, which may take as long as another year - especially when the bureaucracy and the manufacturer are located in two different countries.

The thing that really aggravates me about this issue, is that BRP probably didn't have to put a catalytic converter OR a fuel evaporator container on the vehicle at all. It's a motorcycle, for goodness sakes, and likely not subject to the same bureaucratic standards as automobiles. I'm as environmentally conscious as the next guy, but I hate it when people or companies let "feel good" ideology get in the way of basic common sense - especially when the result hurts consumers.

:agree:.....However they are made in Canada and Canada is their home turf.....Canadian motor veh regs. may play a part in this ...............Just Sayin......Mikeguyver :thumbup:

 

[Magdave]

If you want to debunk a myth then you need hard facts. Not a picture of a gas tank and the statement that you have a couple inches of space. You may be right but that is not proof. What is the actual space between the fuel at max fill and the vent opening in the rollover valve?
From actual measurements and estimating the depth of the flange on top of the tank and estimating the length of the rollover vent valve. I have calculated 1/8 inch space for thermal expansion before blocking the escape of vapour.

It is 1 3/4" from the top of the fill hole to the top of the gas cap flange. The vent hole is higher than that at least 2" higher than the top of the fill hole. For fuel to escape and drain into the EVAP canister it would have to rise above that vent hole point valve or not. I have no idea how you get 1/8":dontknow: even if that were true It is a gas tank design flaw and advising people not to fill their tank until the upper fill splash vents squirt gives them no way to reliably fill the tank.I fill mine with the tip in at least 1" and still get a splash and stop. I can barely see any gas in the fill hole at that point probably 1/2 -1" below the fill hole.

 

[LV2RYDE]

Is that related to 2014 ST as well??

So what do you think the outcome will be? I would be more than willing for them to buy mine back and exchange it for a like kind 2014.

http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_268743/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=7KUQanCl

Is that related to 2014 ST as well??

 

[iSpyder]

2012 had major gas smell not so on 2014

My 2012 RTS had a terrible gas smell that filled the garage after a ride. It was so strong we could smell it in other parts of the house. My 2014 RTS has not had anything like that as of yet (5,000 miles so far).

 

[Showie]

My real concern is trade in time. Was thinking I would be able to get a 2015 :f_spider: but don't know if I can swing a trade-in or sell because of adverse publicity. I hope BRP steps up to plate for us so we can continue to ride :spyder2:'s. ray:

 

[jpbuch9309]

buying

So what do you think the outcome will be? I would be more than willing for them to buy mine back and exchange it for a like kind 2014.

http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_268743/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=7KUQanCl

Ok so I am in the market for one (2015 RT) and all this has he worried but I got to think that they sould have that all worked out by then right ?

 

[PMK]

We do not own a 13. This is a copy of the 13 RT exhaust system.

I really doubt the issue is related to the fuel system, the heat is the problem and the fuel system suffers because of the heat.

This is the exhaust on the 14 RT with the 1330 engine. Far lass exhaust system under the bodywork, therefore less heat is trapped.

Honestly, a redesign of the exhaust would be awesome. The V twin makes it difficult.

A while back I read a post where someone had "shimmed" their aft ends of the bodywork to allow heat to escape. Something similar could be a good start.

I have experience on tightly cowled aircraft. Initially all the exhaust was wrapped similar to what is typically done to the Spyders. Yes it helps, but from experience, the Jet Hot pipes, coated inside and outside ran cooler and were cold to the touch very quickly. When I worked around the wrapped pipes, yes they were cooler than no wrap, but got hot, stayed hot and I have several burns as memories.

It is a heat problem, not a fuel problem.

I feel bad for those affected by this. I hope BRP does it right and makes these a great machine for all of you. Hopefully there are no injuries or deaths from this. That would be a real bummer to read about.

PK

 

[Raknid]

My 2012 RTS had a terrible gas smell that filled the garage after a ride. It was so strong we could smell it in other parts of the house. My 2014 RTS has not had anything like that as of yet (5,000 miles so far).

same here with our 2012.....and it does have the new gas cap.

 

[SNOOPY]

Is that related to 2014 ST as well??

I would say yes. Not enough change on the 2014 ST.

 

[DrewNJ]

We do not own a 13. This is a copy of the 13 RT exhaust system.

I really doubt the issue is related to the fuel system, the heat is the problem and the fuel system suffers because of the heat.

This is the exhaust on the 14 RT with the 1330 engine. Far lass exhaust system under the bodywork, therefore less heat is trapped.

Honestly, a redesign of the exhaust would be awesome. The V twin makes it difficult.

A while back I read a post where someone had "shimmed" their aft ends of the bodywork to allow heat to escape. Something similar could be a good start.

I have experience on tightly cowled aircraft. Initially all the exhaust was wrapped similar to what is typically done to the Spyders. Yes it helps, but from experience, the Jet Hot pipes, coated inside and outside ran cooler and were cold to the touch very quickly. When I worked around the wrapped pipes, yes they were cooler than no wrap, but got hot, stayed hot and I have several burns as memories.

It is a heat problem, not a fuel problem.

I feel bad for those affected by this. I hope BRP does it right and makes these a great machine for all of you. Hopefully there are no injuries or deaths from this. That would be a real bummer to read about.

PK

While an inline motor with a front mounted header typically will have less overall heat to the rider than a vtwin, being a vtwin with the current exhaust design around the motor isnt the issue. They have been running exhausts that way since the introduction of vtwin motors. It's not exhaust routing or exhaust heat that is causing the issue.
There is an issue, but it is not in the physical design of the motor or exhaust going around it in any way.

PK,
I've posted my thoughts on here multiple times on what it is and as usual it falls on deaf ears. Most everyone with heat issues would rather come on here and cry like a bunch of babies claiming that they spent 30k+ on a bike and brp should make it right, they aren't fixing it at their expense...blah blah blah...

The heat ISSUE for those that HAVE listened is gone. I've worked with 8 owners now (6 are 13' machines) that were looking for a resolution even if it cost them a few bucks. The fix costs just under 1k and doesn't involve wrapping pipes, new plastic panels, foam, bubblegum or band aids that others are doing.

BRP knows what the issue is. However, it involves admitting a mistake that will only make most continue to cry and complain. They are also limited to regulations that we as consumers are not in regards to changes. Same song, different dance.

Flame suit on. I'm done.

 

[Craniac]

If you want to debunk a myth then you need hard facts. Not a picture of a gas tank and the statement that you have a couple inches of space. You may be right but that is not proof. What is the actual space between the fuel at max fill and the vent opening in the rollover valve?
From actual measurements and estimating the depth of the flange on top of the tank and estimating the length of the rollover vent valve. I have calculated 1/8 inch space for thermal expansion before blocking the escape of vapour.

I debunked that myth quite awhile ago. Overfilling does NOT cause the problem.
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...Fixing-the-Horrid-Fuel-Smell&highlight=horrid

The problem is too much gas vapor caused by too much heat to the gas tank.

The air filter box restricts air flow. The side panels don't allow air flow. The hot exhaust pipes are under the tupperware where no air flows. The evaporative canister is under the tupperware where no air flows. The Catalytic converter is under the gas tank. BRP actually put a heater under the tank!

 

[PMK]

While an inline motor with a front mounted header typically will have less overall heat to the rider than a vtwin, being a vtwin with the current exhaust design around the motor isnt the issue. They have been running exhausts that way since the introduction of vtwin motors. It's not exhaust routing or exhaust heat that is causing the issue.
There is an issue, but it is not in the physical design of the motor or exhaust going around it in any way.

PK,
I've posted my thoughts on here multiple times on what it is and as usual it falls on deaf ears. Most everyone with heat issues would rather come on here and cry like a bunch of babies claiming that they spent 30k+ on a bike and brp should make it right, they aren't fixing it at their expense...blah blah blah...

The heat ISSUE for those that HAVE listened is gone. I've worked with 8 owners now (6 are 13' machines) that were looking for a resolution even if it cost them a few bucks. The fix costs just under 1k and doesn't involve wrapping pipes, new plastic panels, foam, bubblegum or band aids that others are doing.

BRP knows what the issue is. However, it involves admitting a mistake that will only make most continue to cry and complain. They are also limited to regulations that we as consumers are not in regards to changes. Same song, different dance.

Flame suit on. I'm done.

Drew, I agree. It is a problem. I don't know your process to fix it, but if it works then that is great. I am likely over simplifying it, no heat, no boiling fuel. Yes a V twin, tightly cowled and with exposed pipes under the bodywork. These would be a bit of work to re-engineer. But again it comes back to heatsoaking.

Rest assured, I have a lot of respect for those that step up. Had we bought a 13 as we started to, like you, I would be make it right, even if I was paying for it myself. It is wrong that owners may need to sort this out themselves.

No flames from me! Would you agree though that if the heat from the exhaust was never presented to the fuel tank, these problems would be less, resolved or easier to contend with?

If it matters, the flash point at which gasoline fumes ignite is around -40f. Adding heat makes for more fumes. Maybe everyone should run a 10 foot long hose out the back that drags along. At least the fire will be outside the bodywork.

Drew good on ya for solving a serious problem. Again, no flames from me.

PK