Ongoing ST heat Mods

[hchays]

And what is the solution you're trying?ray:

I have wrapped my pipe with titanium wrap (got very little improvement). Now I am trying a new heat barrier on the back side of the plastic panels. So far i am finding a very noticable improvement. I want to test it one more time this week when the temps are in the upper 80's. If all goes well (as I expect) then I will make public what my fix is. I got very good feedback today on my ride (about 2.5-3 hours of road time).

 

[SpyderMouse22]

I am ready (like this week) to purchase a 2013 ST Limited. Am I crazy??? Am I going to regret this immediately?

I have been obsessed with the Spyder and now that I am ready I am reading all about these serious issues. I actually called CanAm directly the other day and told them I had already purchased it but did not have my VIN. They said "they were not aware of any ongoing issues or campaigns about excessive heat issues" "I should check with my dealer as they are more technical"

Please help!

I bought one two months ago. It is a little hot on the left side when the temps are above 90. Some minor steering issues which i fixed with tire preasure adjustments. No major problems yet. I have 1400 miles on it and have had my 600 mile service done. So in other words I would go for it.

 

[Saluda]

Go for it !

I love it, no issues & no mods.

 

[OldDog]

Lamont, can you summarize your heat mods? ...

Lamont, can you give an evaluation summary of your latest heat mods, based on your trip to Canada? Did they work for you on the ST? Are you privy to any BRP solutions in the works at this time that you can divulge?

How is Flamingobabe coming with her heat mods?

 

[flamingobabe]

So far we have wrapped the pipes...1" over-lap....water wetter in radiator ....ceramic heat shield on gas tank...a temporary heat shield to protect master cylinder.....a flash from PitBull on ECM to richen up fuel...2000 miles spark plugs went from chalky white to a mocha color...which is good color...all the heat that was coming out near handlebars is gone....still concerned about mpg...some times 36....and after 400 miles start getting a lot less...more like 20's..that makes no sense....but I'll take her out this weekend and try and run a few tanks thur the spyder...so far...so good.....but concerns for any permanent damage is still unknown to the engine

 

[sledmaster]

In reading the concerns over some of the units producing extra heat, I wonder if anyone has identified the root cause. Using heat wrap on the exhaust, heat tape and heat shields are band-aids that simply mask the root cause. If the spark plugs are running ghost white then we know it is calibrated very lean. As I understand it, the 2013s have a catalytic converter that previous models did not have? And the 2013s have the added panels that fill in the gaps along the sides, further reducing the airflow? There is likely a new ECU program for fuel and ignition that goes with the CAT, so based on the heat and the plug color it should be a safe guess that there were new targets for emissions and reduced fuel consumption, with the lean calibration now causing the extra heat issues? Fuel is a great coolant, so cutting back on the fuel delivery will for sure make the engine run hotter. We would also want to validate the cooling system is filled to capacity. Maybe the cooling system now needs more cooling capacity to compensate for the reduced cooling effect of less fuel? Not just the amount of liquid capacity, but overall cooling capability of the entire cooling system, from pump to water flow to radiator efficiency to fan timing, all of it.

I would really want to see what kind of fuel is being used on the units that are reporting the extra heat. Are they all burning 10% ethanol, or maybe more? It would be most curious to see what happens if one were to run a tank of premium, non-oxygenated fuel to see if it makes a difference. Could the “hot” units be even worse due to higher levels of ethanol (more leaning out of the fuel-air mixture) than simply magnifies the problem?

My guess would be a new ECU program as being the single most effective solution, but that takes time to develop and validate. Meanwhile, it stands to reason to use non-oxygenated fuel as much as possible. A colder spark plug also makes sense. And the heat shields and tape and wrap should protect components while this all gets sorted out.

 

[NancysToy]

In reading the concerns over some of the units producing extra heat, I wonder if anyone has identified the root cause. Using heat wrap on the exhaust, heat tape and heat shields are band-aids that simply mask the root cause. If the spark plugs are running ghost white then we know it is calibrated very lean. As I understand it, the 2013s have a catalytic converter that previous models did not have? And the 2013s have the added panels that fill in the gaps along the sides, further reducing the airflow? There is likely a new ECU program for fuel and ignition that goes with the CAT, so based on the heat and the plug color it should be a safe guess that there were new targets for emissions and reduced fuel consumption, with the lean calibration now causing the extra heat issues? Fuel is a great coolant, so cutting back on the fuel delivery will for sure make the engine run hotter. We would also want to validate the cooling system is filled to capacity. Maybe the cooling system now needs more cooling capacity to compensate for the reduced cooling effect of less fuel? Not just the amount of liquid capacity, but overall cooling capability of the entire cooling system, from pump to water flow to radiator efficiency to fan timing, all of it.

I would really want to see what kind of fuel is being used on the units that are reporting the extra heat. Are they all burning 10% ethanol, or maybe more? It would be most curious to see what happens if one were to run a tank of premium, non-oxygenated fuel to see if it makes a difference. Could the “hot” units be even worse due to higher levels of ethanol (more leaning out of the fuel-air mixture) than simply magnifies the problem?

My guess would be a new ECU program as being the single most effective solution, but that takes time to develop and validate. Meanwhile, it stands to reason to use non-oxygenated fuel as much as possible. A colder spark plug also makes sense. And the heat shields and tape and wrap should protect components while this all gets sorted out.

All Spyders have had catalytic converters from the beginning. They just took it out of the muffler and made it separate on the RS for 2013.

 

[mseymour67]

I got to say it seems like this overheating could be a huge safety issue. I am getting ready to finally pull the trigger on the ST and all this talk of modifying a $24k bike has gotten me a little timid to pull the trigger. Does anyone know if any of these issues have been addressed for the new model year about to roll out? I may just wait for a 2014.

 

[flamingobabe]

sledmaster...I agree...wrapping is just a band aid....wetter water may help 2 or 3 degrees....but the most help we believe is the flash on the ECM...fuel...but how does one measure this......all I know...my ST is more comfortable to ride

 

[333Club]

On going heat issues with ST's

We have a 2013 ST-SE5 and to be honest, have not had any heat issues yet and we have road in high 90 degree heat down here in Houston. We do feel some heat on the left side of the bike, but nothing unbearable. I have yet to see the temp gauge go above 5 bars either. After riding over 800 miles, we are extremely happy with our ST.

Is it possible that people not having the heat issues have later delivery dates and the factory made an unpublicized mid year modification?

I am about to purchase a 2013 ST Ltd. Am I crazy????

 

[sledmaster]

Is it possible that people not having the heat issues have later delivery dates and the factory made an unpublicized mid year modification?

I am about to purchase a 2013 ST Ltd. Am I crazy????

No I do not believe you are crazy. Many dealers have zero reports from their ST customers of this being a problem. We still have no real hard data on the number of units that are experiencing this issue, so while it might look like a bigger number it could still easily be in the single percentages, or less, of total production. That's why issues like this this take time to resolve. The hard data (not just hearsay) must be accumulated, documented, researched, possible remedies researched, and so on. BRP has never failed me in over 25 years of new snowmobiles, so I have zero doubt they will come through on this as well. Just let them get it sorted out, and if there truly is a problem (there must be if master cylinder parts are seeing heat damage) the affected units will be updated when a fix is ready. And yes, it is common for a manufacturer to make "running changes" on the production line so there can always be differences between models of the same year. They could run out of a part from one vendor, then switch over to the new vendor part. Or they could update a file in the ECU. That is the nature of manufacturing a complete unit from parts and pieces sourced from all over the globe. I am still of the opinion it will be an ECU file change as the most likely at this stage. Since the engine makes heat during combustion, we either need to reduce the heat being produced (fuel delivery, ignition timing) or do a better job at removing the heat (cooling system, air flow, etc.). The thing to remember is that issues can be caused by three basic things; engineering, or design of the vehicle; calibration, or adjustments and settings; or operating conditions, things like environment, operator, weather, fuel, things that can vary day to day. Anytime an issue is reported, one has to sort out to what degree it is caused by the design, how much of it is a calibration issue, and how much of it is the conditions.

 

[Saluda]

Great Post !

We too have been with them (BRP-CanAm) for many years and still feel their sleds are the best. Are they the most costumer friendly company, definately not. That said the prior post I felt was great. Not just the continual "I'm glad I didn't buy a 2013" and how terrible the models are.
As stated many times prior (and not doubting or knocking those with real issues) I am very happy with my STS and it has displayed no issues to this point.
Also my sympathy to those with real issues and the hope they are resolved quickly and to your satisfaction. Best of luck.
To those considering a 2013, I would not hesitate. Pick a good dealer, easier said than done. Our area of the country (New England) does not experience the constant super high temperatures. If you do I may hesitate at this point.

 

[JacqueTanis]

Heat

I have wrapped my pipe with titanium wrap (got very little improvement). Now I am trying a new heat barrier on the back side of the plastic panels. So far i am finding a very noticable improvement. I want to test it one more time this week when the temps are in the upper 80's. If all goes well (as I expect) then I will make public what my fix is. I got very good feedback today on my ride (about 2.5-3 hours of road time).

I added heat barrier to the plastic panels as well - hardly helped at all. What brand are you using? Maybe I'll add some more - can't wait to see your "fix"!

 

[JacqueTanis]

Your Mods

So far we have wrapped the pipes...1" over-lap....water wetter in radiator ....ceramic heat shield on gas tank...a temporary heat shield to protect master cylinder.....a flash from PitBull on ECM to richen up fuel...2000 miles spark plugs went from chalky white to a mocha color...which is good color...all the heat that was coming out near handlebars is gone....still concerned about mpg...some times 36....and after 400 miles start getting a lot less...more like 20's..that makes no sense....but I'll take her out this weekend and try and run a few tanks thur the spyder...so far...so good.....but concerns for any permanent damage is still unknown to the engine

Hi ... what ceramic heat shield did you use for the gas tank and how did you wrap it? Also, the temp heat shield for the MC? What did you use and how? Also, my husband and I have been brainstorming - he suggested maybe adding a limiter to the fan so that it will come on quicker and stay on longer. Won't stop the engine from heating up but may help it to stay cooler longer. What do you think?

 

[Jharpo]

A Question For Those Who Know More Than I

It does seem strange that not all ST ryders are experiencing extreme heat problems. What if, not all catalytic converters are created equal? What if those of us that are experiencing extreme heat problems happened to get a ST with a bad catalytic converter or even a bad muffler? If either of those components was partially blocked in some way, wouldn't that restrict the movement of hot gases toward the tail pipe and cause extreme heat on any part or body part that is too close to the pipes that carry these gases? Just an idea. Short of replacing or removing the catalytic converter, is there any way of checking this?

 

[JacqueTanis]

Heat

It does seem strange that not all ST ryders are experiencing extreme heat problems. What if, not all catalytic converters are created equal? What if those of us that are experiencing extreme heat problems happened to get a ST with a bad catalytic converter or even a bad muffler? If either of those components was partially blocked in some way, wouldn't that restrict the movement of hot gases toward the tail pipe and cause extreme heat on any part or body part that is too close to the pipes that carry these gases? Just an idea. Short of replacing or removing the catalytic converter, is there any way of checking this?

My dealer had The Angel for 6 hours, hooked up on the computer and went over it from front to back. Checked every system - nothing wrong there!:dontknow:

 

[hchays]

I am testing the Thermo Tec Thermo Guard FR heat barrier. It is a foil coated fiber insulation. Not the cheap foam or foil tape that BRP put on the backside of the panels. The fiber does not transfer heat like the foam, thus creating a better barrier. I am in the belief that the heat issue is solely do to the exhaust being so close to the side panel and the cat converter being so close to increase heat in the pipe. I agree with BRP that there is no issue mechanically, it is totally a design flaw. I would like to make one more test run this weekend and report back. If at that point all tests are positive you can purchase the barrier yourself or I will do most of the work for you. IF all tests are positive I will offer to mail you pre-cut barrier to fit your RS or ST Spyder. All you will have to do is remove your side panels ( upper and lower left side panels ) and use an off the shelf automotive spray adhesive and apply the pre-cut panels. It will take most people less than 1 hour to complete. If anyone is interested in pre-cut panels let me know by PM'ing me.

I added heat barrier to the plastic panels as well - hardly helped at all. What brand are you using? Maybe I'll add some more - can't wait to see your "fix"!

 

[flamingobabe]

Hi ... what ceramic heat shield did you use for the gas tank and how did you wrap it? Also, the temp heat shield for the MC? What did you use and how? Also, my husband and I have been brainstorming - he suggested maybe adding a limiter to the fan so that it will come on quicker and stay on longer. Won't stop the engine from heating up but may help it to stay cooler longer. What do you think?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...5684181,k:heat+shield+180021+hp+sticky+shield this is what we purchased for the gas tank...good luck

 

[sledmaster]

CAT location cause of heat?

I am in the belief that the heat issue is solely do to the exhaust being so close to the side panel and the cat converter being so close to increase heat in the pipe.

This would place the root cause of the heat issue as being the new location of the cat converter on the 2013s compared to earlier models. I suppose the CAT was moved out of the silencer so there would be a CAT on the bike regardless of which silencer/end pipe system was installed. Moving the CAT further upstream would move pipe heat, so this seems to be logical.

This theory should be reinforced by those who have installed the new blocking panels to close off the gaps between the side pods and the body panels on pre-2013s (without the moved CAT) and they don't have the heat issues like the 2013s. That would leave the new CAT location as the "difference".

Looks like extensive shielding or hoping for a new cat/exhaust design at this point. But why do some units report this heat as a problem and others do not.....variances in the CAT itself? Curious. Would be interesting take a couple of the cat converters to see if there are significant differences in their ability to flow. Has anyone had this replaced as an attempt to fix? Or swapped with another unit that doesn't seem to get hot?

 

[Spydr in KS]

This would place the root cause of the heat issue as being the new location of the cat converter on the 2013s compared to earlier models. I suppose the CAT was moved out of the silencer so there would be a CAT on the bike regardless of which silencer/end pipe system was installed. Moving the CAT further upstream would move pipe heat, so this seems to be logical.

This theory should be reinforced by those who have installed the new blocking panels to close off the gaps between the side pods and the body panels on pre-2013s (without the moved CAT) and they don't have the heat issues like the 2013s. That would leave the new CAT location as the "difference".

Looks like extensive shielding or hoping for a new cat/exhaust design at this point. But why do some units report this heat as a problem and others do not.....variances in the CAT itself? Curious. Would be interesting take a couple of the cat converters to see if there are significant differences in their ability to flow. Has anyone had this replaced as an attempt to fix? Or swapped with another unit that doesn't seem to get hot?

I think someone removed the cat, wonder if it made a difference in heat?