Two Oil Observations ... I think ...

[GRHorst]

I have a 2021 Spyder F3L that just turned over 11,000 miles. I bought it new and changed oil at 3K, 7K and now 11K miles. I read that you are OK to go more miles before a change. But two observations:

1) After an oil change the shifting is MUCH smoother and I can also HEAR a difference in the transmission (I am a piano tuner and probably have more sensitivity to sounds and changes in sounds)

2) How does the engine oil and transmission oil mix. I know it's the same oil. But does some find it's way to the tranny side never to return? I pulled the left larger plug first and drained the engine oil. When that slowed down to a drip, I pulled the smaller plug on the right side (which I understand is where the transmission oil accumulates). I'm not sure of what I saw, but the right tranny side oil appeared to be significantly darker in color. I don't think it was my viewing angle or lighting difference. I used the same light under the bike. But this oil certainly appeared to be darker.

So this begs the question. Would it be advisable for more frequent oil changes just for the benefit of the transmission?

 

[BajaRon]

If you are using the XPS 5/40 oil, it typically shears down to 20 weight between 4,500 & 5,000 miles. There are other lubricants which retain their viscosity much better all the way out to 10k service intervals. The recommended service interval for the 1330 is 9,300 miles.

My guess is that you're noticing the effects of the oil as it thins and sheers. Putting new oil in returns the viscosity to the original specs and quiets the moving parts.

The engine and transmission share a common case so that both are continually using the same oil. Engines are relatively easy on oil. The crushing action of a transmission is much harder on the oil molecules causing them to break apart which reduces the viscosity. High quality lubricants stand up to this shearing action better than lesser oils. But having said this, I've not heard of anyone wearing out an engine on XPS oil.

 

[JayBros]

Don't overthink the issue. Your eyes, fingers, schnoz, etc. can't tell you squat about how your oil performs. Ron explained how the XPS oil sheers down to 20 weight far short of the recommended 1330 ACE engine oil change interval. IMO, if one can afford to purchase a Spyder, one can afford to add the chump change cost of oil analysis into the total price of an oil change if one really wants to know how the oil is performing. Use the lab of your choice.

 

[T.P.]

opcorn:

T.P.

 

[AndysF3S]

You have a good question but I don't believe that anyone can answer for you.

You will have to decide for yourself when the oil should be changed and the only way that I found that works for me is taking an oil sample and have it analyzed to see what the used viscosity is and what wear metals etc are in the oil? As mentioned above you should be able to find an oil analysis lab in your area if you choose or follow your own oil change interval based (as most do) based on what is right for them. You can search for oil change intervals to see what others think is correct but in the end still your decision.

 

[BertRemington]

I'm not sure of what I saw, but the right tranny side oil appeared to be significantly darker in color.

I think you saw what you saw -- the oil was darker. I've noticed when I replace the HCM filter the oil in various crevices and cavities is darker than elsewhere and it wasn't a matter of thickness. I think particles are settling out before the oil drains back into the engine crankcase.

Your observed phenomena could be more apparent due to your low mileage with the clutch friction plate material wearing to a consistent surface and therefore shedding more particles into the oil. I'm not sure an oil test would detect this material.

I'm sure you are already doing this but a full face helmet and ear plugs will ensure you won't need to retire early. The mechanical parts ain't too noisy but the wind will definitely get you.

 

[TheMariner]

I'm sure you are already doing this but a full face helmet and ear plugs will ensure you won't need to retire early. The mechanical parts ain't too noisy but the wind will definitely get you.

Excellent advice !

 

[BajaRon]

I'm not sure of what I saw, but the right tranny side oil appeared to be significantly darker in color. I don't think it was my viewing angle or lighting difference. I used the same light under the bike. But this oil certainly appeared to be darker.

That is an interesting statement as the oil continually circulates into and between all internal components. I'm wondering if you might have drained the oil cold.

In the end, we have to go back to an oil analysis to have any definitive answer. Because dark oil is not always an indicator of a problem. And even if it is, without an analysis, you'll not know what flavor of issue is causing the contamination.

 

[2dogs]

I've done a couple of oil analyses and have been changing at 10K. Now I'm shooting for 12K. All tests have been using Amsoil 10W40 and Ron's standard filters.

 

[Knizar]

I've done a couple of oil analyses and have been changing at 10K. Now I'm shooting for 12K. All tests have been using Amsoil 10W40 and Ron's standard filters.

:agree: Also my choice with great results, 41K miles so far. Changing at 9K regularly.

:2thumbs: Bill

 

[Peter Aawen]

I'm not sure of what I saw, but the right tranny side oil appeared to be significantly darker in color. I don't think it was my viewing angle or lighting difference. I used the same light under the bike. But this oil certainly appeared to be darker.

That is an interesting statement as the oil continually circulates into and between all internal components. I'm wondering if you might have drained the oil cold.

In the end, we have to go back to an oil analysis to have any definitive answer. Because dark oil is not always an indicator of a problem. And even if it is, without an analysis, you'll not know what flavor of issue is causing the contamination.

I'm pretty sure that the small amount of darker oil coming out with the trans side plug &/or HCM filter would've simply been the oil that hadn't yet gone thru the HCM filter.

Whenever you stop the engine, there's always a small amount of oil that's actually in the process of being run thru the filters, and also some in the process of being directed to the filters that's going to be in &/or immediately behind them, on the un-filtered side. When you shut down the engine, because it doesn't keep pumping all the oil thru both filters until they're completely dry, there's always a small amount of oil that's a little dirtier than everything on the other/filtered side trapped in the filters themselves and in the channels leading to the filters. For the vast majority of the old oil, that's no biggie, cos any oil headed to the main oil filter is basically juuust a little dirtier than the rest and it isn't in a 'diversion system', so it drains out readily anyway. But you're then left with quite a small amount of oil that's been diverted toward the HCM which you haven't yet drained, plus any of the oil that was in the HCM filter itself that you don't manage to get out when you change the filter (which is a 'finer' filter than the main, intended to give an 'extra clean' to the oil used in the HCM ) - and because this small amount of oil is in &/or 'stacked up' behind the filter in the process of being pumped thru that filter when the engine & the pumping stopped, it's pretty much the dirtiest that any of the old oil could've been, cos that's the bit of oil which is effectively carrying the greatest level of pre-filter contamination at the moment you shut the engine down!! :shocked:

That is basically why that 2nd drain plug is there - so that it can drain that small amount of 'carrying concentrated levels of contaminants and not yet filtered oil' out during the oil change process. So seeing a small amount of darker, not yet filtered oil come out there as you've reported is quite normal and is to be expected - if it DIDN'T do that/have that facility, then whenever you changed the oil, you'd be immediately contaminating any fresh oil you added with a small amount of the dirtiest oil remaining from the last lot, even if you DO change both filters! :yikes:

In the overall scheme of things, it's not really all that much 'dirty' oil left, but what little there is, IS the dirtiest oil left from the old 'pre-change' oil; and in their wisdom (quite smart actually! ) the Rotax Engine Designers added that 2nd/an extra drain point to their engines just to make sure that you get that last little bit of extra dirty oil out too!! :thumbup:

So, see my sig line...

 

[GRHorst]

I'm sure you are already doing this but a full face helmet and ear plugs will ensure you won't need to retire early. The mechanical parts ain't too noisy but the wind will definitely get you.

Maybe I will put a microphone in my helmet from my SPL meter and measure the actual sound level at ear level. (Since we are talking about taking measurements in this thread :2thumbs: )

 

[GRHorst]

I'm wondering if you might have drained the oil cold.

Hmmm .... Oil was warm but I wouldn't say it was hot. Warm oil makes you shout OUCH ! Hot oil makes you drop the plug into the pan!

 

[GRHorst]

Thanks Peter. That makes sense!

 

[2dogs]

Hey Peter.........When checking our oil level with the dipstick, which oil are we looking at? The dirtier oil or the cleaner oil? I'm guessing it's the cleaner oil. Correct?

 

[BajaRon]

Hmmm .... Oil was warm but I wouldn't say it was hot. Warm oil makes you shout OUCH ! Hot oil makes you drop the plug into the pan!

How did you warm the oil?

 

[Peter Aawen]

Hey Peter.........When checking our oil level with the dipstick, which oil are we looking at? The dirtier oil or the cleaner oil? I'm guessing it's the cleaner oil. Correct?

Yup! The dipstick goes into the oil in the Reservoir.

But that very small amount of 'dirty' oil is there on most engines, and it's common to the oil that's being directed into a filter and that which is actually IN the filter but hasn't yet passed thru the filter medium, so it isn't anything to worry about... Just so long as you DO change the filter when you change the oil!

 

[2dogs]

Yup! The dipstick goes into the oil in the Reservoir.

But that very small amount of 'dirty' oil is there on most engines, and it's common to the oil that's being directed into a filter and that which is actually IN the filter but hasn't yet passed thru the filter medium, so it isn't anything to worry about... Just so long as you DO change the filter when you change the oil!

Yes, that's what I thought because that is where I suck out the oil for my analysis tests. :thumbup:

 

[GRHorst]

How did you warm the oil?

With a model 1330 Oil Warmer ... round the block a few times ... :shocked:

 

[BajaRon]

With a model 1330 Oil Warmer ... round the block a few times ... :shocked:

OK, then you did it right. I have no explanation as to why oil from basically the same container would be different colors. I've not observed this except with bikes that have been serviced cold.