1330 Performance Upgrades

[larryd]

Steve flashed mine and it runs better, esp at higher revs, would be interested in the 89t. Mike crow

Steve thought he had this accomplished but a glitch showed up on the test bike...

There are several waiting for this fix to be worked out...

 

[Flanker]

That is the number one reason why BRP or the aftermarket needs to step up and find ways (like giving the Spyder more power) to draw the younger crowd to it. It is a fun machine to ride. It would be more fun with more power and even better handling! Younger generations are not riding bikes (2 or 3 wheel) in the numbers that previous generations did at their age. If something doesn't change, there are going to be fewer and fewer riders buying fewer bikes. More models are going to be dropped from production, and more manufacturers are going to close their doors or move on to making different products to stay in business.

The first two companies I see to experience this will be Harley Davidson and the Spyder branch of BRP as they both tend to have the oldest population of customers compared to other manufacturers. I think Honda understands that this is happening. They brought out the new Gold Wing that is slimmer, lighter, with better performance and handling, and a lot more tech built in. They still are not going to draw many 20 year olds, but they are a lot more likely to draw in some customers in their 30's and 40's vs being the "old man bike" that they use to be. It is definitely a step in the right direction!

Amen to all that!

If I could have kept ONE thing from my old RSS; it would have been the sporty riding position. My modded F3S pegs and pedals are a lot better than they were, but NOT where they need to be for proper "vigorous" riding control. That and the seat needs to modded too (high in front/low in back - for sport riding it should be the other way around).

While this isn't really the answer to your original question (where to get pistons, cams, HD cylinder studs and such) it would be a killer option; and it is in line with some of the modded/custom ATVs/UTVs you've posted. As the F3s feature a transverse multi cylinder engine, imagine your F3 with a Hyabusa or ZX14 engine, transmission, and chain drive conversion. Not only yea, but :cus: yea! 200-240 (at the crank) HP is a very realistic target. Widened swing arm to handle a wider rear wheel/tire; upgrade to 17 in wheels to handle larger diameter brake rotors and calipers.

Downside? Mucho dinaro! Long development time. Figuring out how to short circuit/delete all the unwanted nanny ECU crap from BRPs system (might have to ditch it entirely).

If a guy/gal had the budget though; and was determined - I'll bet a place like this shop could handle the project development and integration. Hey! It's a Flex Fuel vehicle! Green as it were. Burns gas and rubber!

https://www.toymakerz.com/

Stop, Flanker! Stop! Before you pee yourself! :joke:

 

[Poseidon]

The issue may very well be that you envision yourself as belonging to a much larger power hungry group than what in reality exists. The potential market may just not be there in the numbers you think. And then, the days of reshaping camshafts and heads to get more power are pretty much gone. It's a computer world, and the Can Am engine is a computer connected to a mechanical rotating system. You can bet the programming that runs the 1330 is probably ten times as complicated as what took the astronauts to the moon. Reverse engineering software is a non-starter unless the potential market is large enough to recover millions in programming costs. BRP is targeting the vast middle area of the potential market, and as I said, power hungry riders aren't part of the middle third of the curve. By your own admission you don't use the power offering of your BMW very much at all. BRP most likely is satisfied to provide a machine for the 95 out of 100 who are potential owners. There's nothing to be gained by going after the other 5 if it adds a lot of cost to the machine.

I think you might be under-estimating the number of people that are interested in bumping up the performance level. Just look at other brands of bikes. Even brands like HD, Indian, and BMW that primarily have older riders. Then look at the number of performance aftermarket builders and companies out there that make, install, or do builds on those brands. 5% of riders wouldn’t be able to support that big of a market. They would all be out of business by now if only 5% of riders were looking for performance upgrades.

We have established that you can dyno a Spyder. “Cracking the code” isn’t a matter of “reverse engineering” the computer on a Spyder, it is about having the software that will allow you to make the necessary changes. Shouldn’t be that difficult to do if someone is willing and able to buy the software.

 

[Poseidon]

Amen to all that!

If I could have kept ONE thing from my old RSS; it would have been the sporty riding position. My modded F3S pegs and pedals are a lot better than they were, but NOT where they need to be for proper "vigorous" riding control. That and the seat needs to modded too (high in front/low in back - for sport riding it should be the other way around).

While this isn't really the answer to your original question (where to get pistons, cams, HD cylinder studs and such) it would be a killer option; and it is in line with some of the modded/custom ATVs/UTVs you've posted. As the F3s feature a transverse multi cylinder engine, imagine your F3 with a Hyabusa or ZX14 engine, transmission, and chain drive conversion. Not only yea, but :cus: yea! 200-240 (at the crank) HP is a very realistic target. Widened swing arm to handle a wider rear wheel/tire; upgrade to 17 in wheels to handle larger diameter brake rotors and calipers.

Downside? Mucho dinaro! Long development time. Figuring out how to short circuit/delete all the unwanted nanny ECU crap from BRPs system (might have to ditch it entirely).

If a guy/gal had the budget though; and was determined - I'll bet a place like this shop could handle the project development and integration. Hey! It's a Flex Fuel vehicle! Green as it were. Burns gas and rubber!

https://www.toymakerz.com/

Stop, Flanker! Stop! Before you pee yourself! :joke:

You would have to scrap the Spyder’s computer and replace it with the Busa or ZX14 computer for engine management anyway. The nanny wouldn’t be an issue because she would be gone with the swap. Biggest issue would be getting the donor gauges to fit and look decent in the dash after the swap. Lots of little issues with making everything fit and line up properly. Would definitely be a fun project and a fun bike when you were finished.

The thing is, none of that should be necessary if we could tap the power that is hiding in the 1330 we already have. After all, that is pretty much the exact same displacement as the Busa anyway. You can’t tell me that one extra cylinder is responsible for the 100 hp difference between the 2 motors!

 

[Nik]

Has anyone actually confirmed, in a measurable way, that the ECU reflash can open up that much more torque and horsepower? Sorry, but it seems like bull**** to me. “Truth through proof” please, where is the data? For example, I had a cat delete on my Daytona F3 and was told there would be more “power”. I can tell you that I zapped the **** out of my low-end torque and gave me a f’ing headache because the damn thing was so loud; and I came from a BMW S1000RR with an Akro full exhaust! I use most of my “power” under 100mph so if there was something out there cranking more torque through the rev range, I’d Love to see the proof!

 

[PMK]

You would have to scrap the Spyder’s computer and replace it with the Busa or ZX14 computer for engine management anyway. The nanny wouldn’t be an issue because she would be gone with the swap. Biggest issue would be getting the donor gauges to fit and look decent in the dash after the swap. Lots of little issues with making everything fit and line up properly. Would definitely be a fun project and a fun bike when you were finished.

The thing is, none of that should be necessary if we could tap the power that is hiding in the 1330 we already have. After all, that is pretty much the exact same displacement as the Busa anyway. You can’t tell me that one extra cylinder is responsible for the 100 hp difference between the 2 motors!

As a package, even the braced F3 might find the added power, 150 or more, simply too much for the chassis. Seeing that the F3 is kind of labeled as a cruiser style and the RT as a touring style makes it like hopping up the family station wagon. However, I do agree that out of the box the RT 1330 needs about 30 more HP. Riding 2 up, it tends to struggle passing semis and busses on the highway. They will be running about 75 to 80 and the Spyder struggles to punch through. We now make the pass more quickly, busting through the airwall at around 85 to 90. It simply lacks roll on power without a downshift, and a downshift at 75 is not what I consider an ideal way to ride with a passenger.

Consider too, any computer swap from a high-performance bike would likely lose the ABS setup.

 

[PMK]

I asked previously on the FB group, has anyone ever measured the cam lobe center degrees? I was told that the cams are installed and rigged by a fixture plate to degree them into oem specs. It would be interesting to know that spec and optimize it a bit as the setup is already slotted and adjustable.

 

[Dennis in Lodi]

Has anyone actually confirmed, in a measurable way, that the ECU reflash can open up that much more torque and horsepower? Sorry, but it seems like bull**** to me. “Truth through proof” please, where is the data? For example, I had a cat delete on my Daytona F3 and was told there would be more “power”. I can tell you that I zapped the **** out of my low-end torque and gave me a f’ing headache because the damn thing was so loud; and I came from a BMW S1000RR with an Akro full exhaust! I use most of my “power” under 100mph so if there was something out there cranking more torque through the rev range, I’d Love to see the proof!

Hi Nik, this is the best I can do for performance data results. The video link kind of speaks for itself as I challenge anyone to post their stock RT doing anything like the video. I am anti cat delete as my testing verified noticeable power loss. However, me and Hypurone have found combinations of exhaust upgrades that rock with the flash. I have an RLS delete with an open Spyder One Attitude pipe. BUT, it has taken a total of THREE specific BAFFLES in line to fix and get real low-end gain.

https://monsterfuelinjection.com/spyder/

This is a clip of my flashed 2015 RT. It's not really as loud as it sounds. Kind of speaks for itself. But like Pete says it's what we deserve from Can-Am. Can you imagine buying an 8-cylinder Mustang and have them tune it down to a 6-cylinder? Given the Spyder's weight and the many dynos I have paid for, I suspect I'm pushing about 125 to 130 hp with the flash at 8,600 red line.[


Flashed my 2016 F3L. Had a 12 mph gain through the test area speed trap over stock, 104 mph to 116 mph. Just a total hot rod that hauls butt ANY TIME you crack the throttle. 6th gear is a little sleepy. Where I really notice the power is taking 3rd or 4th gear down low in the rpm range and run it up to 7,200 rpm. It just absolutely flies through the rpm's in this area. I have the 8,600 red line and it gets kind of ridiculous from 7,200 to red line. I spend most my time shifting well below 6000 rpm as the bike really scoots around. I can smoke the tire off the line at will and can beak traction snapping the throttle open around 6000 rpm in 1st gear.

Here is where the final product is at for performance.
1. Stock -1st gear 0 to 50 mph @ 6 seconds; Flash - 0 to 63 mph @ 6 seconds
2. Stock - 2nd gear roll on at 35 mph @ 6 seconds = 63 mph; Flash - 35 mph @ 6 seconds = 83 mph
3. Stock - 3rd gear roll on at 45 mph @ 6 seconds = 73 mph; Flash - 45 mph @ 6 seconds = 96 mph

 

[Hypurone]

Has anyone actually confirmed, in a measurable way, that the ECU reflash can open up that much more torque and horsepower? Sorry, but it seems like bull**** to me. “Truth through proof” please, where is the data? For example, I had a cat delete on my Daytona F3 and was told there would be more “power”. I can tell you that I zapped the **** out of my low-end torque and gave me a f’ing headache because the damn thing was so loud; and I came from a BMW S1000RR with an Akro full exhaust! I use most of my “power” under 100mph so if there was something out there cranking more torque through the rev range, I’d Love to see the proof!

I am anti cat delete as my testing verified noticeable power loss. However, me and Hypurone have found combinations of exhaust upgrades that rock with the flash.

I'm the guy (Hypurone) Dennis is referring to that has an RLS midpipe and custom baffles. I have no low-end loss after installing 2 custom baffles in my setup. I did the cat bypass for reasons other than perfromance (weight, heat, smells, sound).

As far as actual performance "in a measur
able way", in stock form my 2015 F3-S would start to bog down approaching 100 and struggle to pass 105 mph. It would start to bog down as the end of each higher gear was reached (5th & 6th). It would not pull with any urgency at revs above 7k and if I was in the wrong gear (even just 1 gear up) roll-ons were abysmal!

AFTER the flashing (which had hiccups in my case) was sorted out, all of the above are HISTORY! I can reach insane top speeds. It runs like I dropped a small supercharger in it! There is power everywhere, at any rpm, in any gear, at any throttle position! It evens shifts better! And that is not even one of the selling points of the flash. It is hands down the best mod I have done to the byke. And that is saying a LOT because I value handling above most everything, except power!

There is one downside to the flash! My rear tire is suffering immensely! :roflblack:

 

[larryd]

I LOVE the above posts. BRP wanted performance in some of the F3's; they did it with the 89T rear sprocket set up; and when re-flashed, they flat out fly! The RT's are heavier, usually ridden two up and many times pull a trailer, thus labeled dogs. For just over $600.00 you can purchase the F3 89T rear sprocket and belt that is a direct bolt on for the RT - NOW WE JUST NEED SOMEONE THAT CAN GET THE NANNY/COMPUTER TO WORK WITH THIS SET UP. Steve at MFI though he had it conquered but it didn't work out in the long run. I have the belt and sprocket in stock waiting for a fix and if someone gets a handle on this. I think it will be popular upgrade...

The F3's have both the 79T and the 89T sprocket set ups so this is a doable thing. The F3's can be changed to run either set up. So we just need SOMEONE with the knowledge to crack this nut, or MAYBE BRP should offer an upgrade package with a Belt, Sprocket and Re-flashed ECM or whatever is needed. I would order one today...

Glad to see this topic is still alive...

THANK YOU Dennis, PMK & Hypurone.

Responsible comments always welcome...

larryd

 

[Dennis in Lodi]

Having Two ECUs (one Stick; one flashed) for testing really refreshes me on the difference. Thanks to Hyperone asking to have his throttle transition point moved up to 50% flashed vs 80% stock, I have fallen in love with that feature alone. Virtually all power is available with just about 1/4" of wrist travel. At first it seemed kind of abrupt in 1st gear and took a bit of training control to smooth out the slow starts. Now I do almost nothing with my wrist and my F3L flat out starts flying vs stock having to roll the throttle almost 3/4 open.
When I switch between the ECUs the usable power gains down low boggles my mind. It's two completely different bikes. On the flash I can shift hard into 2nd gear around 55 mph and lay down 25 FEET of SECOND GEAR RUBBER.
The power difference is this - Wherever the stock 1330 motor is making its peak power and torque, the flashed version is making that same max output BELOW 5K!


I'm not trying to sell ECU flashes, but the PROOF is more than in for me.

Dennis

 

[Hypurone]

Having Two ECUs (one Stick; one flashed) for testing really refreshes me on the difference. Thanks to Hyperone asking to have his throttle transition point moved up to 50% flashed vs 80% stock, I have fallen in love with that feature alone. Virtually all power is available with just about 1/4" of wrist travel. At first it seemed kind of abrupt in 1st gear and took a bit of training control to smooth out the slow starts. Now I do almost nothing with my wrist and my F3L flat out starts flying vs stock having to roll the throttle almost 3/4 open.
When I switch between the ECUs the usable power gains down low boggles my mind. It's two completely different bikes. On the flash I can shift hard into 2nd gear around 55 mph and lay down 25 FEET of SECOND GEAR RUBBER.
The power difference is this - Wherever the stock 1330 motor is making its peak power and torque, the flashed version is making that same max output BELOW 5K!


I'm not trying to sell ECU flashes, but the PROOF is more than in for me.

Dennis

Glad I could help! :thumbup: Isn't it just AWESOME!!? :yes:

 

[Nik]

Glad I could help! :thumbup: Isn't it just AWESOME!!? :yes:

Ok, I’m in line, give me a phone number to the promised land!

 

[Hypurone]

Ok I’m in line, give me a phone number to the promised land!

Dennis has the link to Monster in his post #108. You fill out the request form with the particulars of your byke and then just handwrite on it that you want the throttle adjusted to respond quicker. Feel free to drop my name (Chuck from California that originally requested a quicker throttle) and or Dennis's and say you want it done like ours. :thumbup:

 

[SpyderPolly]

Cat Delete

So... where are all the performance upgrade threads? Who are the vendors that supply parts? Where are the dyno tuners and Rotex gurus that know where BRP hid the power? Where are the cams, high compression pistons, BBK's, turbo kits, supercharger kits, etc? You know, the stuff that makes fun bikes MORE fun!

Wanting to delete cat on my F3L and am looking at ebay site. a seller on ebay"" baldwinironworks selling ugly cat delete pipes for 100 bucks, stainless ..has anyone bought from these folks??

 

[L_r_g]

I've had the MFI flash done to mine as well and I promise you, it's money WELL spent. The increased power is great but for me the biggest improvement is driveability with the improvements made in the lower end of the power band since I do a lot of city driving. Bang for the buck is very high with this mod!

 

[ejstrickland]

2017 RT LTD Where's the beef?!

I come from the sportbike big bore world. I have had the Honda Hurricane, Yamaha V-Max, and the GSXR 1100, so I totally know what you mean. I realize this is a different type of bike, and shouldn't be compared. None of those bikes were air ride either. I love my Spyder, but it would be fun to lift the two front tires off the ground. Ha!!! Like they say in business...you don't get what you don't ask for.

I want more!!!

 

[Revalden]

I don't understand the de-tuned engines either. I'm sure both the 998 and the 1330 are capable of more power from the factory but BRP chooses not to use it. A person would think the 1330 would have much better performance than the 998 but in reality they are about the same although I think the 1330 has longer legs on the top end. Maybe BRP feels the design (drive train, electronics, etc) isn't capable of the increase in power?

All I know is I ride with my neighbor a lot who has a 1600 (6 cylinder) BMW sport touring bike. It has about 150hp and weighs about the same as the Spyder (within 60lbs). When we start running continuous speeds down the interstates of 90-105 the Spyder starts to struggle to keep up. I'm there with him but if he decided to go faster for a length of time (passing lots of cars, etc) I'd be playing catch up. So, I know most of you here are going to say...."you shouldn't be going that fast". That's not the point, we could argue that topic forever. The point is BMW's goal is to put a bike on the road that offers a certain level of performance to the rider and riders are expecting a certain level of performance when they buy that bike.

If you never drive above 75 then the 1600 BMW will meet your performance level but also another BMW of lower performance might be a better bike for you.
If you never drive above 100 then the 1600 BMW meets your performance level but also another BMW of lower performance might be a better bike for you.
If you never drive above 125 then the 1600 BMW meets your performance level better than the lower performance BMW bikes

BRP isn't meeting a performance level for a variety of rider types. They offer 2 bikes, the RT and F3. Yes the F3 comes in different configurations but that revolves around storage and comfort features not performance. Both bikes (the RT and the F3) offer the same 1330 and the same 6 speed tranny. The RT offers a different seating position than the F3. Both bikes have about the same performance (speed, power, handling). Sure you might be able to feel like you can ride an F3 faster than an RT or vice versa but bottom line is both bikes offer about the same level of performance.

This is where BRP misses the boat I think. Different riders want/require different performance levels to satisfy their riding style. BRP tries to offer a one size fits all package that just doesn't excite some riders. Until they offer different levels of performance they are not really going to increase their market share and the same type of riders will continue to own Spyder's which means the brand will continue to be "defined" a certain way.

What's also odd is....in the snowmobile, ATV and Sea-Doo biz BRP does offer different levels of performance and tries to appeal to many different types of riders. I just don't understand why that doesn't carry over into the Spyder line?

That's because older riders have lawyers on retainer and can afford to sue BRP for making a dangerous product. :read:

 

[Ojonesy]

I own a RT and find the power output while not mind blowing and like some of the previous comments, I would have thought it should produce a few more ponies for the size of engine and revs, but generally speaking, I am happy with it. However I find the fuel economy not to be as good as I would have expected and if there was a tuning mod around, I would be interested. Compared to a modern 1300cc car around these days, cruising at 60mph, these cars are achieving high 40's. They are pushing heavier weights than the RT, carry more passengers, and have close to the same top speed, admittedly probably don't have the same acceleration, I am achieving high 30's mpg (US gallons) which I tolerate, but find a little disappointing. That's my comment on this, I certainly won't be rushing out to change the machine, I have many more miles to do and do hope that these engines are good for it long term. My only other comment is that CAN AM do need to think how one can gain access to the engine (particularly on the RT's), not the best to work on, most of your time is taken up stripping the bike down to get to the engine. Hate to think what is involved in replacing the air filter.

 

[Lew L]

On the newer RT''s the air filter is not too bad. Check the owners manual