Anyone verified Aftermarket Performance Gains?

[BertRemington]

BTW I keep coming back to increasing Volumetric Efficiency. The Rotax is slightly oversquare DOHC so 130% is theoretically possible except you probably don't want to regrind your cams. But you still need to measure VE. While the throttle is ECM-controlled it isn't a mass air flow sensor. And you still need to measure fuel quantity (I assume you're going to add a UEGO to the exhaust). That's a bit tricky because injectors ain't a nice clean square wave. There's probably some circuit out there that returns a duty cycle as a voltage you can translate into fuel flow. Everything else (eg air temperature, RPM) is easy to obtain. An Arduino Duo might not be able to keep up -- you might need to step up to a more powerful version.

 

[2dogs]

I have the stage 2 Monster tune on my 2014 RTS along with the cat eliminator pipe, AND YES IT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE...This did not effect my fuel milage...larryd

Same for me and I have the exact results as you. I like performance however when I'm 2/3 gas tanks from home I prefer reliability over performance.

 

[larryd]

larryd -- some questions

What models?

Did they only try modifying their existing rear wheel? Did they try replacing the rear wheel entirely with the 89 tooth version? Or did the VCM detect an out-of-range engine speed vs wheel speed and engage safety mode?

You only replace the rear sprocket and longer belt...Everything else is the same...Spyder goes into limp mode...I have a new belt and 89 T sprocket in stock HOPING someone get this working...I talked to Steve at Monster and there was some interest a few years ago, but now is dead...If I had the knowlege I THINK its doable since you can get a F3 either way, BUT, NOONE has been able to change their F3 to the 89 T or from the 89 T back to the 79 T set up...I'm sure its all in the programing...

 

[BertRemington]

Yep from your description the VCM or ECM is detecting an out-of-range engine vs wheel speed.

After reading the service manual several times, I think the detection is in the ECM. The VCM receives throttle opening but doesn't appear to receive engine speed while the ECM receives wheel speed (as converted to road speed by the VCM).

There are two (in my service manual) procedures for programming an ECM: copying firmware from an existing ECM to a new ECM; and getting factory firmware according to VIN, model#, etc. Perhaps the first method would work to copy 89T firmware to a 79T ECM. The second method wouldn't work due to VIN, model #, etc mismatch.

Just some thoughts. A BUDS expert is needed.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Peter -- dang I forgot the Spyder electronics didn't like wheel speed differences. But Monster publishes dynamometer results https://static.wixstatic.com/media/...3998_0774c6b4847246faaa5bb3347fa4eae1~mv2.png so there must be some means of obtaining measurements.
.....

That's true, there's always been a way to do this, it's just never been easy or a justifiable expense for most... All they had to do was remove the front wheel speed sensors from their default positions and extend them back to connect them both to the rear wheel speed sensor - but that's not anywhere as easy to do as it is to type it &/or think about! But NOW, there's the option to enable that Roller Bench Mode, IF you've got the necessary BUDS Licence/version.

Ps: The difficulties with swapping the rear pulleys on Spyders wasn't just the ECM & engine/wheel speed sensing thing; if it was, it would've been a relatively easy fix for someone like Jase at Rotax Racing. But apparently, there's a number of 'other' places in the system that are also involved, (possibly coding hanging off the Country Code?? :dontknow: ) and despite some concerted efforts at tracking all the necessary changes down & updating them to suit the different rear pulley size too, every attempt & multiple changes still ended up in limp mode!! :banghead:

 

[BertRemington]

Well Peter this has been an adventure and a learning opportunity for me.

I was familiar with 3-wire Hall effect sensors (we use them on the SCTA roadster) and 2-wire ABS sensors (inductive reluctance) but not 2-wire Hall effect sensors. So after research, like the 3-wire sensors, the 2-wire sensors produce a square wave...but it's current (6,17 ma) not voltage (0,5 v).

So Step 1 rather than physically moving the sensors just create a buffer circuit to copy the rear wheel square wave to the front wheel.

Then there's the ECM thing. Except it isn't the ECM it's the TCM. Using a 2018 FE-S as baseline here's what I found:

79T and 89T ECM: same p/n
79T and 89T VCM: same p/n
79T and 89T Console: same p/n
79T TCM 420666756 89T TCM 420266879

So what are the TCM differences. Obviously various coefficients must change. Perhaps they are hard-wired (ie resistors) rather than firmware.

So has Jase at Rotax tried swapping TCMs?

PS I'm looking for an F3-S TCM on eBay right now and if I find one I'm going to buy it (they are the same 2015=>2022).

 

[larryd]

Well Peter this has been an adventure and a learning opportunity for me.

I was familiar with 3-wire Hall effect sensors (we use them on the SCTA roadster) and 2-wire ABS sensors (inductive reluctance) but not 2-wire Hall effect sensors. So after research, like the 3-wire sensors, the 2-wire sensors produce a square wave...but it's current (6,17 ma) not voltage (0,5 v).

So Step 1 rather than physically moving the sensors just create a buffer circuit to copy the rear wheel square wave to the front wheel.

Then there's the ECM thing. Except it isn't the ECM it's the TCM. Using a 2018 FE-S as baseline here's what I found:

79T and 89T ECM: same p/n
79T and 89T VCM: same p/n
79T and 89T Console: same p/n
79T TCM 420666756 89T TCM 705502187

So what are the TCM differences. Obviously various coefficients must change. Perhaps they are hard-wired (ie resistors) rather than firmware.

So has Jase at Rotax tried swapping TCMs?

PS I'm looking for an F3-S TCM on eBay right now and if I find one I'm going to buy it (they are the same 2015=>2022).

BertR. If you want a 89 T rear sprocket and matching belt to "play" with let me know...larryd

 

[BertRemington]

Larry -- how about this? I send you a 2016 F3-T 89T TCM (I confirmed 89T by p/n and they were selling the 89T sprocket from the same Spyder) and you see if it works. I should have the TCM (shipped from FL within 2 weeks).

PS I made a mistake on 89T TCM p/n which is 420266879 (I entered the 89T sprocket p/n -- corrected).

 

[BertRemington]

LarryD -- the F3s and RTs use different TCMs and ECMs. But then again you don't have an RT ECM anymore -- you have a Monster ECM. So knowing all of the above maybe you want to give Monster a call and see what they think?hyea:

 

[BertRemington]

LarryD -- I just realized my offer might have been misunderstood. I'm not selling the 89T TCM. I'm offering to loan it to you. I'll pay postage out, you see if you can get it to work, and if it does we can go from there. If it doesn't then just send it back to me. If instead of your testing it and you want to forward it on to Monster I'm fine with that. This is a lark for me. I want to see if we can get ordinary Spyders to work with the 89T sprocket.

 

[mandytuning]

My pv3 have an option for dyno.

 

[BertRemington]

mandytuning -- do you know why the 2014-2015 RTs weren't supported? And does the PowerVision update the ECM only or does it also update the TCM?

Edit ----------

Answered first question. The Power Commander V is for 2014-2015 RTs although marked as Discontinued. And it turns out I just happen to have an extra AT-200. Hmmm

Very unlikely to update the TCM. I'm getting the feeling Bosch has that locked down.

 

[larryd]

LarryD -- I just realized my offer might have been misunderstood. I'm not selling the 89T TCM. I'm offering to loan it to you. I'll pay postage out, you see if you can get it to work, and if it does we can go from there. If it doesn't then just send it back to me. If instead of your testing it and you want to forward it on to Monster I'm fine with that. This is a lark for me. I want to see if we can get ordinary Spyders to work with the 89T sprocket.

I'm in PA and the riding season is just starting and last till mid Oct...I'm great with mechanical things but not real techy...I'd rather send you the belt and sprocket, on my dime, and you can work on it at your leisure...larryd

 

[BertRemington]

And I have too many Spyder and non-Spyder projects going on. First El Mirage event is less than a month away and the Lakebed is Open! I'm going to chase down the guys on this thread and see if they want to contact Monster to see if there's any interest there https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...S2-not-showing-ECM-Info&p=1658150#post1658150 Since I don't have a Monster tune and won't be getting one I don't feel right about cold-calling them. But I want to see if my 89T TCM analysis is correct (I was wrong about OBD -- BRP uses proprietary messages -- that cost me $100s).

 

[MagYukon]

Peter -- dang I forgot the Spyder electronics didn't like wheel speed differences. But Monster publishes dynamometer results https://static.wixstatic.com/media/...3998_0774c6b4847246faaa5bb3347fa4eae1~mv2.png so there must be some means of obtaining measurements.

larryd -- Monster requires some airbox changes but still retain a comfortable sound level. In your discussions with them did they say anything about more extensive airbox changes that would increase sound level as well as power?

Bert, I haven't seen any answers to your questions.

I had an 2016 F3T with the stage 2 Monster Fuel Injection Tune.

As Larry was saying, no difference in fuel milleage if not better (compare to same ride with a friend who doesn't have any tune).

The air box mod is only 2 holes in the cover. No really difference in sound in my opinion unles you are taking it to really high revs.

i Think the tune might be even better in HP gain if you mod also your exhaust system, but I didn't go that way on mine.

Overall, I was really happy with the tune. Shifting was better and also acceleration.

 

[troop]

I can tell you that the two holes in the intake cover do something. I currently run a PV3 with custom map, modded airbox lid-K&N filter, Two Brothers racing exhaust and Pedal Commander. Prior to my custom tune, if you ran the lid with open holes, it would really pop on decel. I plugged the holes until I got the custom map. Those holes really do open up the air intake..

 

[Hypurone]

You only replace the rear sprocket and longer belt...Everything else is the same...Spyder goes into limp mode...I have a new belt and 89 T sprocket in stock HOPING someone get this working...I talked to Steve at Monster and there was some interest a few years ago, but now is dead...If I had the knowlege I THINK its doable since you can get a F3 either way, BUT, NOONE has been able to change their F3 to the 89 T or from the 89 T back to the 79 T set up...I'm sure its all in the programing...

It can be done yes, but you have to change so many components to do it that it makes it a non-starter for most... Last I read, you would have to obtain a new ECM & TCM that are "PAIRED" to each other for the 89T, plus the dash would need to be paired to them and I don't think that can be done, so a NEW DASH is needed, then once that happens I believe the VCM (that does the VSC and something else) needs to be changed to match the new Dash, I am going from memory on this and my discussions with a friend who was trying to get it done so I may have the last part wrong.

Either way it isn't for that faint of heart and trying to find someone adept enough to undertake is daunting! My friend contacted dealers as well and NONE of them would touch it!!

 

[Peter Aawen]

It can be done yes, but you have to change so many components to do it that it makes it a non-starter for most... Last I read, you would have to obtain a new ECM & TCM that are "PAIRED" to each other for the 89T, plus the dash would need to be paired to them and I don't think that can be done, so a NEW DASH is needed, then once that happens I believe the VCM (that does the VSC and something else) needs to be changed to match the new Dash, I am going from memory on this and my discussions with a friend who was trying to get it done so I may have the last part wrong.

Either way it isn't for that faint of heart and trying to find someone adept enough to undertake is daunting! My friend contacted dealers as well and NONE of them would touch it!!

That's pretty much the same thing I'd heard on this side of the world :thumbup: Nett result, it's basically cheaper & easier just to buy another Spyder with the rear pulley you want! :yikes:

 

[BertRemington]

hypurone -- how far did your friend go with parts swap? Did they first try the TCM? Then discover they needed an ECM and try that? And then discover they needed a console and try that? And stopped before trying a VCM?

My parts counter search found the TCM was different between 79T and 89T but the ECM, Console and VCM were the same.

With the exception that was US (North America) only. Australia, Japan and Europe were different (basically 79T only).

Regarding TCM/ECM=>Console pairing, was cross-model pairing blocked by serial numbers or other mechanisms?

Thanks.

 

[Hypurone]

hypurone -- how far did your friend go with parts swap? Did they first try the TCM? Then discover they needed an ECM and try that? And then discover they needed a console and try that? And stopped before trying a VCM?

My parts counter search found the TCM was different between 79T and 89T but the ECM, Console and VCM were the same.

With the exception that was US (North America) only. Australia, Japan and Europe were different (basically 79T only).

Regarding TCM/ECM=>Console pairing, was cross-model pairing blocked by serial numbers or other mechanisms?

Thanks.

It has been quite awhile since he was involved in doing this and honestly, I haven't heard from him since.. It was more of a "like minded" & long distance acquaintance type of thing and his communication just trailed off... I would have to go back and see if I saved his emails about the process... It came down to some type of programming was needed between all the parts and it was unclear as to what exactly it was. And the inability to obtain the info about it was the final nail in the coffin IIRC...