Why JASO MA2 in a Ryker?

[Marr]

I was talking to a friend that’s a Harley mechanic, he was saying that most harleys have engine oil, and transmission oil separate. For their wet clutch they recommend a less slippery oil, and for their engine they recommend a less slippery oil. The reason for the engine, is they have roller bearings, and a molly oil or something like that, is good, but they found that sometimes it was too slick, and the roller. Earring would slide instead of roll, causing them to start having flat spots on them. I wonder if BRP engines have roller bearing too.

 

[BajaRon]

I was talking to a friend that’s a Harley mechanic, he was saying that most harleys have engine oil, and transmission oil separate. For their wet clutch they recommend a less slippery oil, and for their engine they recommend a less slippery oil. The reason for the engine, is they have roller bearings, and a molly oil or something like that, is good, but they found that sometimes it was too slick, and the roller. Earring would slide instead of roll, causing them to start having flat spots on them. I wonder if BRP engines have roller bearing too.

This does not sound right to me. Roller bearings have been used in automotive engines since the 1920's. Friction modifiers in engine oils since 1915. Molybdenum (Moly) has been used in motor oils since 1935. And our modern day friction modifier packages begin in 1970. JASO rated oils did not come out until 1998. So, with this time line, I don't see how the statement from this Harley mechanic fits.

 

[SportsterDoc]

Synthetic oils began to be marketed in the early 90s. I do not know why BRP designates 4T oil for the Ryker (original topic), but I can address Harley's history:
As synthetic oils became more popular and motorcyclists started using them, Harley-Davidson dealers would admonish motorcyclists to not use synthetic oils, citing concerns about "bearing skate". The fallacy of that alleged concern is that if the lubricant is so slick that the bearing can't turn, how is it going to flat spot?

However, that concern went away the moment Harley-Davidson introduced their Syn 3, alongside their dino oil HD 360.

H-D does not make it easy finding a spec sheet for their oils. I would not be surprised if it is a 4T oil even though the engine and transmission are separate for both the big twins and Sportsters.

Castrol Power 1 V-Twin oil is a 4T oil.

The original question has still not been answered.

 

[BajaRon]

Though synthetic compounds had been experimented with and produced in laboratories in small amounts much earlier. Fully synthetic oil was developed and used on a much larger scale by Germany in WWII. Both Mobil 1 and Amsoil marketed fully synthetic engine oils in the early 70's. Wide spread negative rumors hindered acceptance for some time. These rumors persist even today. However, full synthetic oils are pretty much universally accepted now.

 

[SportsterDoc]

I should have stated widely marketed or beginning to be widely accepted.
http://www.oil4kids.com/syn-hist.htm

 

[BajaRon]

I should have stated widely marketed or beginning to be widely accepted.
http://www.oil4kids.com/syn-hist.htm

Not a problem. And does not detract from the main theme of whether or not a JASO rated oil is necessary, or even the best way to go, for the Ryker.

I put in a question with the 'Experts' at Amsoil on this subject. They used to give me good information. But these days, what I usually get is just CYA boilerplate like, 'Use what the manufacturer recommends'. OK. I get it. That's the safe way to go. But it doesn't really address the question.

It reminds me of when the Spyder first came out. I replaced the copper core spark plugs with NGK's Iridium IX plugs. It really made a noticeable difference in throttle response, quicker starts and a bit better fuel economy. I said so on this forum and I got the usual flack from some saying that I was not using the recommended spark plug. And I fully understand where these people were coming from.

Then, BRP put out a bulletin saying that the Iridium IX plugs should not be used and were not recommended. But by then, there were enough riders who had installed them that a fair amount of support for the upgrade was expressed.

After all of the push-back by BRP, 2 years later the Spyder started coming out with, you guessed it, Laser Welded Iridium spark plugs from the factory. How about that....

I am not saying the same is true for a friction modified engine oil. But I have yet to hear a logical or mechanical reason for not using what appears to be a better, and less expensive, lubricant in my Ryker. (Not withstanding BRP's recommendation).

But BRP also recommends Kenda tires.

 

[SportsterDoc]

The only circumstance that I can think of where a upgraded spark plug may have been an issue would be the original Platinum spark plugs on a wasted or dual spark ignition system. This was mitigated when Platinum spark plugs were then made available as double Platinum , as explained in this link:
https://ngksparkplugs.com/en/resources/waste-spark-ignitions

 

[BajaRon]

The only circumstance that I can think of where a upgraded spark plug may have been an issue would be the original Platinum spark plugs on a wasted or dual spark ignition system. This was mitigated when Platinum spark plugs were then made available as double Platinum , as explained in this link:
https://ngksparkplugs.com/en/resources/waste-spark-ignitions

A little of subject. But still interesting. The real issue, and eventual reason for the waste fire systems demise, is that energy always takes the path of least resistance. The exhaust cylinder presented a much easier pathway for the spark to travel than did the cylinder under compression. So, more spark energy was spent on the 'Waste' cylinder. This is why performance tended to deteriorate relatively quickly on waste fire applications. I know my Honda 750 was this way. One of the best upgrades to that motor was to convert it to a dedicated coil for each cylinder. You would still have 2 coils firing at the same time. 1 to waste and the other to compression. But at least each spark plug was getting 100% ignition spark every time.

Those were the days! I remember many saying that a 750 cc motorcycle was ridiculously large. No one needed an engine that big!

Now I own a Suzuki M109R (1800 cc). And it's becoming a middle of the road size what with the Rocket and other larger displacement engines out there. And we're not even discussing the Boss Hoss!

 

[Tslepebull]

A little of subject. But still interesting. The real issue, and eventual reason for the waste fire systems demise is that energy always takes the path of least resistance. The exhaust cylinder presented a much easier pathway for the spark to travel than did the cylinder under compression. So, more spark energy was spent on the 'Waste' cylinder. This is why performance tended to deteriorate relatively quickly on waste fire applications. I know my Honda 750 was this way. One of the best upgrades to that motor was to convert it to a dedicated coil for each cylinder. You would still have 2 coils firing at the same time. 1 to waste and the other to compression. But at least each spark plug was getting 100% ignition spark every time.

Those were the days! I remember many saying that a 750 cc motorcycle was ridiculously large. No one needed an engine that big!

Now I own a Suzuki M109R (1800 cc). And it's becoming a middle of the road size what with the Rocket and other larger displacement engines out there. And we're not even discussing the Boss Hoss!

My first truck was a Ford Courier (Mazda) with an 1800 cc motor. It lacked the performance of your Suzuki

 

[BajaRon]

My first truck was a Ford Courier (Mazda) with an 1800 cc motor. It lacked the performance of your Suzuki

My Suzuki is a BEAST!

 

[Tslepebull]

My Suzuki is a BEAST!

It should be with the equivalent displacement of TWO Ace 900's!