To Steve (BRPcare) about DESS issues

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

REALLY

My dealer just told me that their BRP tech told them they are NOT even working on the problem because once you have the latest and greatest module the problem is fixed unless you have another source of RFI causing the problem..TOTAL BULL - SH*T

If it ever stops raining here, the next trip on my Spyder I will put my cell phone and vehicle keys back in the right saddle bag in my cooler and see if the problems returns or not...

JUST MAKES ME PROUD TO BE AN OWNER OF SUCH A FINE MACHINE...

PS I have a GREAT dealer and they are trying to help in any way possible...

larryd

................If this were true WHY ARE PEOPLE HAVING THEM REPLACED 3 AND 4 TIMES ..........Mike :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[Imagestealer]

DESS issue

well that sounds to me like one set of wires power the module, and the other set are on a open contact that closes when the key is found. so then if the open relay is jumped out, it closes the circuit and the bike will start

That is unlikely. It is more likely that one plug is power to the module and the other is connected to the CANbus network.

Given the amount of computerisation of these machines, I would be surprised if it was a simple as a relay. More likely it sends a message to the starter control circuit that the correct key is inserted, an it is OK to start.

Keep in mind that this is just a guess, but 40+ years working in industrial automation and control makes me think it is very likely.

 

[Sam Mac]

Maybe Steve will get back to us if he reads this post, I just put in an inquiry with the Dept. of Transportation about who I need to talk to about this issue. Figure I paid enough for the machine and I paid my fair share of taxes so I'll let BRP and the Gov have at it. Owning a $20,000 plus machine that you can't trust is BS.

 

[cuznjohn]

i am sure it is simple to have BRP turn off the unit through software, but i doubt they will because it will cost them money to have the dealer do it. so my suggestion would be, if a bike goes in with the problem and the module needs to be changed, then the dealer should be able to turn off the function if the owner want it done. OR if a person like me who has not had the problem wants it done, i would pay a reasonable service charge to be hooked up to the BUDS system to have it turned off

 

[spyderCodes]

I know this is the internet and it's easy to TYPE, SEND and THINK.

But here is reality folks.
As soon as a corporation, any corporation hears "Class Action Law Suit" this is what happens:
Wagons get circled.
Law Firms, already on retainer, get called.
Their advice DO NOTHING UNTIL WE STUDY THIS.
Then guess what?

Time passes.
and passes.
and passes.

Plus here's the icing on the cake:
BRP does respond to their product's shortcomings.
They usually take more time than anyone likes but they come through.

Alright, my flame suit is on.
Have at it.

 

[Sam Mac]

i am sure it is simple to have BRP turn off the unit through software, but i doubt they will because it will cost them money to have the dealer do it. so my suggestion would be, if a bike goes in with the problem and the module needs to be changed, then the dealer should be able to turn off the function if the owner want it done. OR if a person like me who has not had the problem wants it done, i would pay a reasonable service charge to be hooked up to the BUDS system to have it turned off

How much is it costing them to replace the modules? Gotta be more than plugging in the BUDS and reprograming the system.

 

[Sam Mac]

I know this is the internet and it's easy to TYPE, SEND and THINK.

But here is reality folks.
As soon as a corporation, any corporation hears "Class Action Law Suit" this is what happens:
Wagons get circled.
Law Firms, already on retainer, get called.
Their advice DO NOTHING UNTIL WE STUDY THIS.
Then guess what?

Time passes.
and passes.
and passes.

Plus here's the icing on the cake:
BRP does respond to their product's shortcomings.
They usually take more time then anyone likes but they come through.

Alright, my flame suit is on.
Have at it.

Just to be clear I'd much prefer to see BRP just correct to problem. But after reading all the post's about this problem I don't see any positive action on BRP's part. I have no intention of flaming you and you bring out an important point. I'm hoping that BRP will promptly rectify this issue once and for all.

 

[Jheck]

Jheck sent this link to BRPCare a few days ago.

Thanks Jheck

I also sent the other DESS thread to them also. Steve at BRP CARE says they always monitor their e-mail. So if that is true, they have been notified of our concerns.

 

[cuznjohn]

here is another question for the people having the problem. do any of you have another key that is chipped for the bike in your pocket or hidden on the bike. could it be that the reader is reading both keys and causing the problem

 

[Bfromla]

IMO another key/cell phone/ghost/lightening storm/God hates you excuse from BRP is just that an excuse, to cover up that they have no clue, or that they figure its cheaper to just replace parts until you go away. When I was a tech, and we had intermittent problems (F4 radar systems (1968)) we used Freon and a heat gun to make the module fail. Usually, it was a under sized part and we would replace with a "larger/better" part. We had a war to win, so our job was to keep the plane in the air and the radar doing its job. These modules were a lot more complicated than any DESS box.

If they got these from the cheapest Chinese source, then you know that they used the cheapest parts/chips. Either way a poor design or cheat parts, if they wanted to solve it, they could.

:firstplace::dontknow::dontknow:

:roflblack::roflblack:

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

here is another question for the people having the problem. do any of you have another key that is chipped for the bike in your pocket or hidden on the bike. could it be that the reader is reading both keys and causing the problem

I just tried this. With the second key next to the one in the ignition a DESS error comes up. One inch or more away, no error. This again is verification that the transmit signal from the key is pretty weak. That's why BRP says "unless there is other RFI" causing a problem. The weak signal from the key can be easily overpowered by some other RFI.

If we knew what the frequency is that the key transmits on it would be easier to do meaningful testing with other devices that use that same, or nearby, frequency.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

That is unlikely. It is more likely that one plug is power to the module and the other is connected to the CANbus network.

Given the amount of computerisation of these machines, I would be surprised if it was a simple as a relay. More likely it sends a message to the starter control circuit that the correct key is inserted, an it is OK to start.

Keep in mind that this is just a guess, but 40+ years working in industrial automation and control makes me think it is very likely.

One plug is power. The other goes directly to the ECM, not CANbus.

I think some of you missed my earlier explanation, "In 2014 it was changed and the ECM gets the key ID number from the DESS and checks the list of authorized keys. If it matches then OK to run." All the DESS does is reads the digital key number from the key and transmits it to the ECM. The ECM makes the decision if the key is authorized. If the key code get mucked up for whatever reason, the ECM will not find it in its list of authorized keys and gives the DESS error. I can readily understand the idea that other RFI signals can mess up the code the DESS sends to the ECM. That is something that BRP has no control over.

Those of you who get repeated DESS errors, have you tried leaving ALL your electronic stuff behind to see if maybe something you have is causing the problem? Or, if you need to have that stuff with you put it inside a lidded steel can in the trunk. That should trap the RF coming from them. If you then have no DESS errors that will be a strong indicator that something external to the Spyder is causing the problem.

Now, what I haven't seen anyone mention is having the ECM changed out, at least for a test. If, by some chance, there is a glitch in the ECM in the key verification part of the software, then that will create an error, I'm sure.

 

[Sam Mac]

Looks like it's not just Spyders that have DESS problems it seems to be a problem with most of the Can Am product line, check this out.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=can+am+dess+key+not+recognized

 

[Trbayth]

One plug is power. The other goes directly to the ECM, not CANbus.

I think some of you missed my earlier explanation, "In 2014 it was changed and the ECM gets the key ID number from the DESS and checks the list of authorized keys. If it matches then OK to run." All the DESS does is reads the digital key number from the key and transmits it to the ECM. The ECM makes the decision if the key is authorized. If the key code get mucked up for whatever reason, the ECM will not find it in its list of authorized keys and gives the DESS error. I can readily understand the idea that other RFI signals can mess up the code the DESS sends to the ECM. That is something that BRP has no control over.

Those of you who get repeated DESS errors, have you tried leaving ALL your electronic stuff behind to see if maybe something you have is causing the problem? Or, if you need to have that stuff with you put it inside a lidded steel can in the trunk. That should trap the RF coming from them. If you then have no DESS errors that will be a strong indicator that something external to the Spyder is causing the problem.

Now, what I haven't seen anyone mention is having the ECM changed out, at least for a test. If, by some chance, there is a glitch in the ECM in the key verification part of the software, then that will create an error, I'm sure.

I think changing out the ECM as a test would be quite an involved process. What I'd love to be able to do is sniff the canbus and see what the DESS is sending to the ECM. If it's the correct number (no idea how to determine what is correct or not) then it could be a software glitch in the ECM. If garbage is being sent on the bus, then it could be the DESS. By swapping out DESS modules it seems BRP thinks it's garbage on the bus (or a bad read) rather than a glitch in the ECM.

The two times I've gotten a DESS error there were no other electronic doodads anywhere near the key or the module. Both times, taking the key out and waiting a few minutes cleared up the problem.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

What I'd love to be able to do is sniff the canbus and see what the DESS is sending to the ECM. If it's the correct number (no idea how to determine what is correct or not) then it could be a software glitch in the ECM.

It's not on the CANbus. It plugs directly into the ECM.

 

[Derk]

A couple of questions that I hope haven't been asked already. Has anyone with DESS # 4916, the latest module, have a DESS code come up? I've had mine replaced with #4190 and now I'm getting DESS error codes coming up, I'm going in next week to have it replaced with #4916. Also, would having my spare key and garage door remote in the glove box on my 2014 RT-SE6 possibly cause the error codes? Do all model Spyders have the same DESS module? I believe BlueNight had his replaced with #4916, have you had any problems or is it to early to tell?

Thanks everyone for all your help on this DESS problem, and thank you Deanna for your help also.

DERK

 

[rcturner]

Another question about DESS

In the original response from BRPcare, it was suggested that turning the ignition on/off four or five times without letting the bike shut down would help clear the error. Has anybody tried this procedure. If it clears the error, is there really a problem that exceeds just being a pain in the hind quarters ? As an FYI, mine has the 4190 replacement module and my service person says their was/is and campaign to replace malfunctioning/defective modules.

 

[Grandpot]

In the original response from BRPcare, it was suggested that turning the ignition on/off four or five times without letting the bike shut down would help clear the error. Has anybody tried this procedure. If it clears the error, is there really a problem that exceeds just being a pain in the hind quarters ? As an FYI, mine has the 4190 replacement module and my service person says their was/is and campaign to replace malfunctioning/defective modules.

If this procedure keeps you from being stranded, good. However, it should not be happening at all. BRP needs to fix the route cause of the problem.

 

[cuznjohn]

has any of the people that got stuck had to pay towing out of your pocket, or did BRP pick up the tab for it

 

[Sam Mac]

I would suggest that anyone that has had problems with the DESS list the specifics, how many times has it failed, were you stranded, did you have to pay for the tow, how long was your Spyder out of service etc. So that we can show DOT that this issue is causing not only inconvenience but also that it is costly. I for the record have not experienced a problem yet. My concern is that I will be some place and have it fail. I always travel with both keys.


I wonder if installing a battery disconnect switch and never removing the key would help? Just tossing this out for thought. Give me the good old days when the key was a simple thing. Steal it and I'll just call the insurance agent, that's why they get the big bucks anyway.