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Red Dust of Death Recall???? Front Sprocket Recall - FINALLY....

We are not dealing with 'rocket science' are we?
Pretty close! I just read an article that mentions even microscopic dust you can't see getting in between the splines can lead to wear and failure. IMO, this red dust problem is a much greater engineering challenge than you guys want to give it credit for. I wouldn't be surprised if the ultimate solution is planned obsolescence, i.e., replace the sprocket every so many miles.
 
As a former Chinook Mechanic, we used a moly spline lube when fitting that kind of assembly. The purpose was to avoid damage to the parts. I know Hondas sold it for that purpose.
BRP used to build aircraft. I think they know that. I have a tube of M77 in my garage.
 
Pretty close! I just read an article that mentions even microscopic dust you can't see getting in between the splines can lead to wear and failure. IMO, this red dust problem is a much greater engineering challenge than you guys want to give it credit for. I wouldn't be surprised if the ultimate solution is planned obsolescence, i.e., replace the sprocket every so many miles.

In the past, here on Spyderlovers I have posted references to a very good engineering document regarding fretting of splines and what is required to prevent it. Many replies it seems scoffed at it, but whatever.

When the NHTSA recall was issued a few months ago, and after reading the intended plan, to those folks on some FB groups I suggested the owners, if skills, tools and materials allowed, accomplish their own inspections, and with that reassemble wet with moly paste.

BRP / Can Am truly botched the pulley / sprocket fretting issue in the grandest way. Rather than go through what is happening now, they should have notified owners and dealers that the pulley / sprocket required routine maintenance, of remove, inspect and reassemble wet at prescribed mileage intervals.

Adding to the severity, the Kluberpaste specified to use for lubricating the splines seems inadequate in regards to performance over time.

Regardless of how few pulleys are not passing the inspections, as per what some owners and shops are stating, if all pulleys were put onto a maintenance program and not expected to last forever, this situation would be accomplished for those that had their Spyder inspected.

The AZprince it seems also worked on helicopters / aircraft, and with that, like myself, as I have stated many times, spline inspections are a continuing inspection item. Disassembled, cleaned, inspected, lubricated and reassembled until the next inspection. It will be interesting if BRP / Rotax / Can Am do find a permanent fix that lasts the life of the vehicle, but my guess is they will not. And if the do come out with a new design pulley, what new problems will that cause?

So far it seems they have had worn pulley splines, two piece bolt / washer setup superseded to the one piece style, pulleys that whistle and whine, pulley flanges separating from the pulley body, snapped gearbox output shafts where the pulley installs, they even increased the retaining bolt torque spec, and maybe even more.

Long before the pulley issues became as they are today, years ago, I removed the oem pulley from our 2014 RTS. Cleaned and inspected the pulley and gearbox shaft splines. Found no red dust or wear. Then reassembled the pulley onto the shaft, wet with moly paste. Just to be certain the retaining bolt was not loosening as some folks here suggested, I went ahead and drilled the new one piece bolts head, installed it to the then current torque spec, and safety wired the bolt.

Absolutely not concerned or worried about our pulley. Two reasons. First off, if is not part of the pulley bulletins, second, I will decide when to accomplish the removal, inspection, lube and reinstall for the next time. Likely each 10,000 miles which is every other oil change for us.
 
Can Am needs to step up to this problem of their own making. I wouldn't be surprised if the over-taut drive belt was the cause.
Occam's Razor, you know?


It is the drive belt, remove the belt completely and the pulley will never wear. Honestly, the belt, whether loose, tight, or mid range merely generates the microscopic movement to induce fretting corrosion. If that movement is either stopped completely by a tapered fit or tightly pinch bolted setup, the fretting should diminish or end. Both require serious reengineering of components.

The easy and a well accepted method to prevent fretting corrosion is assembling with a correct lubricant, and replenishing the lubricant at certain intervals.
 
BRP / Can Am truly botched the pulley / sprocket fretting issue in the grandest way. Rather than go through what is happening now, they should have notified owners and dealers that the pulley / sprocket required routine maintenance, of remove, inspect and reassemble wet at prescribed mileage intervals.

Under FTC rules, if BRP officially updates the required maintenance schedule to add removal and lubrication of the sprocket, they would be on the hook for the cost of doing it. The maintenance schedule is part of the conditions of sale. BRP will not change the maintenance schedule for sold units.

I suspect the BRP 'permanent' fix will be a new sprocket with some space age dry lube pre-applied that they believe will last long enough to get them out of this quagmire they are in.
 
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I suspect the BRP 'permanent' fix will be a new sprocket with some space age dry lube pre-applied that they believe will last long enough to get them out of this quagmire they are in.
Unless I'm mistaken didn't the fretting problem show up beginning with the 2015's? Makes me wonder what changed in the manufacturing tolerances and/or the materials in 2015. Do 2020+ machines have a fretting problem since they're not part of the recall? None have been reported here. I suspect the source of the problem lies in the transmission output shaft. Maybe the splines are cut narrower, or the metal is softer than 2014, which was the first year of the 1330. That would be costly to replace for all the machines.

I was going to compare part numbers for the gear box main shaft for 2014 and 2015+ but interestingly, there is no part # in the gear box parts diagrams for the shaft by itself, only as a gear set, for any MY beyond 2014. The gear set part # is the same for 2015 to 2022, so if there was change in 2020 it isn't reflected in a new part #.
 
Under FTC rules, if BRP officially updates the required maintenance schedule to add removal and lubrication of the sprocket, they would be on the hook for the cost of doing it. The maintenance schedule is part of the conditions of sale. BRP will not change the maintenance schedule for sold units.

I suspect the BRP 'permanent' fix will be a new sprocket with some space age dry lube pre-applied that they believe will last long enough to get them out of this quagmire they are in.

Never heard that the maintenance schedule was FTC contingent. Kind of interesting since my Toyota Tacoma transmission fluid was stated as 100,000 miles before replacement. A couple years after buying the truck, I saw bulletins dropping that to 60,000 miles, but no mention of Toyota paying for the decreased interval.

Ironic, the dry film lube you mention, typically is moly based. FWIW, on the various splines of certain aircraft that run dry film moly vs wet applied moly, we still must remove, clean and inspect for wear / dry film lube degradation. Often reapplying as needed.
 
Never heard that the maintenance schedule was FTC contingent.
I wonder if that's what came into play when the timing belts in early Ford Escorts broke. Originally Ford said they were good for 60k miles but they started breaking at 40k miles. Ford replaced a lot of Escort engines with a newer design with pistons that had depressions in the top and would tolerate a broken belt. My Escort, with the newer engine, broke the belt at about 39,500 miles with no damage. Repair took about 2 hours!
 
Ulflyer, as you can tell from my post above, my main issue is with my dealer and my post was mainly a venting process. I should have also checked with this forum, but I didn't. My bad. Having been told that conforming to the safety recall was a dealer decision option was unacceptable and caused some angst on my part.

However, all is well now, at least for the time being. When I went in to pick up my Spyder, I talked to the service writer about the details of the recall. He recognized the need to replace the cog to complete the recall and placed an order for whatever the final fix will be.
 
This is what I saw:
View attachment 198642

After removing it:
View attachment 198643

After welding it:
View attachment 198644

Put it back in with some Honda Moly 60, torqued the bolt, went for a ride.
So far, it's working.

It's a good thing you noticed that separated flange Steve. That could have led to some very serious problems including rear tire lockup. Good for you sir! I personally use Honda M77 moly since my ST1300 days. Good stuff for sure.
 
Crazy thing is, I was not looking for it. After replacing the fuel pump (under warranty), some of the lights I had added were not working. I had removed the side panel to trace the wire I had added, and saw the loose flange.

When the sprocket was removed, the flange was just a bit loose. Might have been a press-fit at one time, but it might also have been riding on the shaft for a while, wearing away on the inner edge. Made it easy to slap it back in place and weld it. Someone earlier asked if the welds might affect the balance? They are applied rather evenly (we did not measure them out, just eyeballed them) and rather small, I don't believe that balance will be a problem.

I also have some Moly 77, but I'm waiting until I use up all my Moly 60 before breaking that open. :thumbup:

.
 
my dealer in Illinois said they have no replacement sprockets yet, dont know when either, brp has had computer issues.:banghead:
 
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My 2018 F3L is at my dealer since August 16th. I have 27,000 miles on my F3L and no major problems so far. I took it to the dealer for a rear tire replacement and to check noise in the front. I suspected the front sprocket problem and I was correct, it was the sprocket. They indicate it will be fixed as per the recall. It is sitting at the dealer since that date. Called them September 20th and they indicate BRP has not made the new sprocket's yet and do not know when they will be made available to them. They could not give me a date when they can fix this issue. I am thinking it will not be this year. I just hope the dealer continues to keep it inside as they indicated.
 
My 2018 F3L is at my dealer since August 16th. I have 27,000 miles on my F3L and no major problems so far. I took it to the dealer for a rear tire replacement and to check noise in the front. I suspected the front sprocket problem and I was correct, it was the sprocket. They indicate it will be fixed as per the recall. It is sitting at the dealer since that date. Called them September 20th and they indicate BRP has not made the new sprocket's yet and do not know when they will be made available to them. They could not give me a date when they can fix this issue. I am thinking it will not be this year. I just hope the dealer continues to keep it inside as they indicated.

Why is it sitting there?? :dontknow: . As far as I can see from the recall docs, there IS an Interim Fix available & they should do that so you can be back on the streets ryding until the permanent fix becomes available, cos there's no knowing when that might happen! :rolleyes:

I think your dealer is just being lazy & trying to save a few dollars by not bothering to do the Interim Fix in order to get you back on the road for now; but they are doing this AT YOUR RYDING EXPENSE! :mad: If you do a search & a bit of reading, there are more than 'just a couple' of others out there who've got Spyders that failed the 'pulley rotation test', but their dealers did what the Recall Doc said, and applied the Interim Fix for them, so they're out there ryding as I type!! :lecturef_smilie:

Your Dealer's just being a penny pinching git! I'd be telling 'em they're slack barstewards & to pull their finger out, do what it takes to get you back on the road ASAP, & then do the Permanent Fix as & when it becomes available down track some time! :thumbup:

But then I'm a bit like that.... :rolleyes:
 
If they don't do the fix in a reasonable time I would ask for loss of use or a loaner. both will xost the dealer more.
 
I agree with Peter Aawen, your dealer either is lazy or doesn't know what he's talking about.

Go back to them and ask that they do the interim fix (replacing the pulley with a new one) and if they don't then call BRP yourself and get them involved.

As far as asking for a loaner or loss of use, I don't think that legally they have to do either. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong though.
 
I sent an Email to BRP Cares over a week ago asking when the "new" sprocket is going to start being available, since we are well past the August 30th date, which, according to the recall, was when the sprocket was supposed to start being available to dealers. And guess what? Total silence from BRP. Not that I really expected them to reply, much less have any information as to when the sprocket will be available. Par for the course. BRP doesn't give a s*** about us after they have our money. Somehow I'm getting the feeling that there are no sprockets actually being manufactured at this time, regardless of what they may say. I mean really, how long could it take to make a sprocket? My recall notice from BRP was dated May 26th. I would think that in four months a heck of a lot of sprocket could have been made. But what do I know? I'm just a poor sucker who bought one these things.
 
Somehow I'm getting the feeling that there are no sprockets actually being manufactured at this time, regardless of what they may say. I mean really, how long could it take to make a sprocket? My recall notice from BRP was dated May 26th. I would think that in four months a heck of a lot of sprocket could have been made.
You are right. It wouldn't take long to make sprockets. What takes time is figuring out what the root cause of the problem is, what's the best design to address that problem, and test the redesigned sprocket to make sure it does solve the root problem. Considering that spline fretting problems have existed in industry for decades, finding the best and final solution that doesn't require changing the transmission output shaft is not trivial.
 
You are right. It wouldn't take long to make sprockets. What takes time is figuring out what the root cause of the problem is, what's the best design to address that problem, and test the redesigned sprocket to make sure it does solve the root problem. Considering that spline fretting problems have existed in industry for decades, finding the best and final solution that doesn't require changing the transmission output shaft is not trivial.

:agree: ..... What baffles me is WHY the Sprockets that were used from 08 thru most of 2014 were changed to ones that are now failing at an alarming rate. ....Has the Metallurgy changed ??? .... Has the Paste changed ??? .... has the mounting procedure changed ???? ... BRP knows way more than they are telling us ..... JMHO .... Mike :thumbup:
 
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:agree: ..... What baffles me is WHY the Sprockets that were used from 08 thru most of 2014 were changed to ones that are now failing at an alarming rate. ....Has the Metallurgy changed ??? .... Has the Paste changed ??? .... has the mounting procedure changed ???? ... BRP knows way more than they are telling us ..... JMHO .... Mike :thumbup:

Wouldn't the main change be going from a manual to a semi auto transmission? Maybe that has something to do with everything? :dontknow: Just a shot in the dark.
 
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