Potential to Make Some Money - Ram Air Scoops

[DrewNJ]

A solution to what kind of heat problem? Is it just a rider discomfort heat OR is the motor indeed running hot?
There is a big difference. I don't have a 13' and while my 12' gets hot riding in the summer, I am certain it's running the way it should. That I'm hot because I'm sitting on an internal combustion engine that runs about 200 degrees or so and doing this in 100 degree ambient temps.


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[SpyderRx]

When sitting still they also reverse the fan to pull the heated air forward away from the rider.

I thought this was only on the new RT. Is it that way on the ST also? Would be great if it is.

 

[kman]

We have been trying to find a solution for a long time . . . nothing seems to work, yet . . .

I have mentioned this before in another thread and I will say it again.Pull your sparkplugs and check for a lean running condition.BRP is not going to come right out and say this is the problem because of the EPA.OOps got to get back to work!

 

[Dan McNally]

A solution to what kind of heat problem? Is it just a rider discomfort heat OR is the motor indeed running hot?
There is a big difference. I don't have a 13' and while my 12' gets hot riding in the summer, I am certain it's running the way it should. That I'm hot because I'm sitting on an internal combustion engine that runs about 200 degrees or so and doing this in 100 degree ambient temps.


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It isn't just discomfort. My master cylinder, brake cable, and charcoal canister all melted. They were replaced and insulated. However, the heat is still there. I can't keep my cell phone in the glove box because it gets too hot . . . one died. What is that intense heat doing to my wiring harness or to the rubber hoses? What kind of gas mileage would I get if my gas didn't boil after a long ride? Obviously better than I get, now. If it was something as simple as discomfort, I'd just velcro neoprene inulated pads to my seat where my legs get burned . . . my concern is the hidden damage going on inside. There needs to be a way to get more air moving through the inside to vent that heat that seems to stay there. There probably isn't a single solution . . . more airflow, wrapped pipes, insulated gas tank, remapping so the engine runs a bit richer . . .

 

[DrewNJ]

Ok, so if it's a motor running hot concern has anyone actually checked afr to see what is going on? Remember, it's liquid cooled so adding air under the plastic isn't going to do much, if anything, to fix the problem. Air under the plastic will help with rider comfort.
I posted a thread a bit ago about afr on my own machine and it got very little attention. That surprised me with all the heat talk around here. On our pretty heavily modded skis we rely quite a bit on afr and tune accordingly.
Someone NEEDS to do some afr checking on a 13'. If its a fuel map issue and the machine is indeed running hot from being lean its a fairly easy fix.


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[3 Wheel Addict]

My 13 RT/S is not even 2 months old yet and I have some serious heat issues. I'm not talking about heat coming from the radiator area either, I understand that issue and it's a whole nother ball game. I'm talking about such heat under the plastic that the fuel in the tank boils and the gas cap is to hot the handle, I have to put a towel over the front of the seat/plastic area to keep from cooking my nuts and inner thighs. That's what we are all complaining about! There is a issue for some and not others and we can't seem to put a finger on why? :dontknow: I have got in some decent riding lately but it's been cool (50's) and it been nice to just out and cruise around for a couple hundred mile or so. My gas cap is still really hot but the heat coming out of the cracks around the seat is nice right now, i'm worried about the high 90's this summer.

 

[Huddleston]

Ok, so if it's a motor running hot concern has anyone actually checked afr to see what is going on? Remember, it's liquid cooled so adding air under the plastic isn't going to do much, if anything, to fix the problem. Air under the plastic will help with rider comfort.....

I just returned from a trip 5 1/2 hours each way. It was the first longer trip since I added my Vertika Trykes top vents. Cruising up and down the Interstate at 75 miles per hour for two hours at a time, my heat gauge showed only 3 bars! The area around the glove box was not even warm. Of course when you stop or are slowed down in traffic, the vents do not force air under the hood, and the heat went back up to 4 bars. FYI

 

[DrewNJ]

I just returned from a trip 5 1/2 hours each way. It was the first longer trip since I added my Vertika Trykes top vents. Cruising up and down the Interstate at 75 miles per hour for two hours at a time, my heat gauge showed only 3 bars! The area around the glove box was not even warm. Of course when you stop or are slowed down in traffic, the vents do not force air under the hood, and the heat went back up to 4 bars. FYI

On my 12' RS I run 3-5 bars. I see 3 bars in the cooler weather on the highway or riding steady. Steady 4 bars this time of year (50-70 degree weather). I will see 5 bars with the fan running during the summer heat going slow or in traffic. I'm hot as well as everything around me. But it's the kind of normal heat I've seen on just about every other motorcycle I've owned.
Vent type mods are personal comfort mods and some of them work very well at keeping the rider more comfortable. Similar to pulling the splash pans and the diverters/block off plates we all do and have done for several years. They keep the heat AWAY from the rider but do very little for motor cooling overall. The heat is still there.

More airflow across the radiator, or a larger radiator, will improve motor cooling MUCH more than airflow across the motor itself. MUCH MORE. Just like opening the hood of your car after driving for any period of time and touching anything under there....Including the hood. It's HOT. But you don't notice it because your sitting in the the cab behind the motor compartment.
Remember, 200 degree water temps for a water cooled motor isn't really that hot. It feels hot to us because our bodies are air cooled. It's accentuated on something like the spyder because it's smaller and you literally sit straddling that hot motor.

Now, EXCESSIVE heat can only be from a few sources. Either the cooling/lubrication system isn't up to the task OR the motor is running to lean creating hot spots that don't cool well by the cooling/lubrication system. Sometimes hot spots can be a motor design issue as well.

We know the cooling system works and the design of the setup is solid because not much has changed in that area since 08'.
So, again IMHO this likely comes back to a tuning area of concern.

 

[DrewNJ]

I'll go a step further and this might help make some more sense.

We run well over 300hp supercharged motors in our jetskis. Liquid cooled. Those motors sit down in a hull under a seat. There are no direct airflow vents for air flowing over the motors for any type of motor cooling. The only vents are at the rear for the air intake on the motor/supercharger to draw in air for combustion.
Tuned properly we have NO overheating issues and no heat issues around the seat, dash etc etc.

 

[DrewNJ]

There probably isn't a single solution . . . more airflow, wrapped pipes, insulated gas tank, remapping so the engine runs a bit richer . . .

Agreed! and from what I've been reading you all have wrapped and insulated to what most would consider an extreme! :yikes: With very little, and sometimes even sketchy results...

Now, Get tuning and put this problem to bed! :thumbup:

 

[DJFaninTN]

Has anyone tried a product called Zircotec? I think it is produced in England but there are distributors here in the states. It is used in F1 cars and airplanes as well. This isn't something you can go pick up a Lowe's.

http://www.zircotec.com/page/heatshield_products/97

 

[3 Wheel Addict]

I'll go a step further and this might help make some more sense.

We run well over 300hp supercharged motors in our jetskis. Liquid cooled. Those motors sit down in a hull under a seat. There are no direct airflow vents for air flowing over the motors for any type of motor cooling. The only vents are at the rear for the air intake on the motor/supercharger to draw in air for combustion.
Tuned properly we have NO overheating issues and no heat issues around the seat, dash etc etc.

One key factor here though is the water cooled exhaust system. I you did not have that the ski's would burn up due to exhaust heat.

 

[rojodawg]

Fatuous....really?

Other facts of life . . . melting master cylinders, melting brake cables, melting charcoal canisters are not normal . . . there is an issue, here. If you don't have that problem with your Spyder, well, thats just great . . . good for you. However, to cavalierly discount the validity of the issues almost half of 2013 Spyder riders are experienceing, according to the survey someone else conducted here is fatuous . . . I've ridden since the 60's and never had this kind of problem, before.

The most "fatuous" statement in this thread is that almost half of the 2013 owners are experiencing heat problems. With thousands of owners, you can't take a survey with only a handful of responses and draw any legitimate conclusions. Based on dealer reports of the percentage of 2013 spyders showing any evidence of excessive heat while performing the recall work, the actual number of "problem spyders" appears to be very low, most likely in the single digit percentages.

The vast majority of spyder owners have expressed nothing but support and encouragement on this forum to those few riders who are experiencing excess heat. I'm thankful my 2013 hasn't shown any problems, and I hope the ones that do run hot are fixed asap so everyone can get on the road and enjoy their ride. But it does get so, so tiring reading the constant complaints about the 2013's, and the all too frequent advice from some that no one should even consider buying a 2013 because they are all worthless. It's simply not true. With a vocal minority throwing all of the 2013's into the category of worthless because a few have problems, it's no wonder the trade-in value for everyone is low.

Again, I'm sorry if you have excessive heat, but please try to keep things in perspective and avoid inflammatory claims that do no good for anyone. :gaah:

 

[DrewNJ]

One key factor here though is the water cooled exhaust system. I you did not have that the ski's would burn up due to exhaust heat.

Exactly. Water cooled exhaust. Again, There is NO ambient air surface cooling on ANY of it. It's all water cooled.

So, that tells you even more that a properly tuned engine does not produce heat concerns nor need any airflow across the surface for cooling.
All motorcycles and cars as well as all spyders have exhaust systems. I don't think the exhaust heat is the root of the issue. Maybe it's a source of that person comfort heat though...


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[DrewNJ]

It isn't just discomfort.. . . my concern is the hidden damage going on inside.

Also, if this is your only concern then take all those extra bolt on vents, pipe wraps, and all the BRP self stick foil and chuck it right in the trash! None of that is going to help with potential internal motor damage.

Again, not at all trying to be a dick. Just honestly trying to help. I really want all those that are having issues to get them resolved correctly.




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[Dan McNally]

Ok, so if it's a motor running hot concern has anyone actually checked afr to see what is going on? Remember, it's liquid cooled so adding air under the plastic isn't going to do much, if anything, to fix the problem. Air under the plastic will help with rider comfort . . .



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Never said my engine was running hot . . . the coolant works as designed and the temperature guage holds true at four bars, most of the time. The issue that this thread was made to address is heat coming off the engine and pipes, under the tupperware, that has nowhere to go due to a lack of ventilation. It gets too hot inside the tupperware, very hot . . . hot enough to melt plastic and rubber parts and cause the gas tank to boil. On a long ride, that intense heat works its way up under the seat around the seat lock and other small gaps. It even killed a cell phone in the glove box. There needs to be a way to ventilate that space to prevent the intense heat buildup.

 

[DrewNJ]

Never said my engine was running hot . . . the coolant works as designed and the temperature guage holds true at four bars, most of the time. The issue that this thread was made to address is heat coming off the engine and pipes, under the tupperware, that has nowhere to go due to a lack of ventilation. It gets too hot inside the tupperware, very hot . . . hot enough to melt plastic and rubber parts and cause the gas tank to boil. On a long ride, that intense heat works its way up under the seat around the seat lock and other small gaps. It even killed a cell phone in the glove box. There needs to be a way to ventilate that space to prevent the intense heat buildup.

ahh...ok. Just general ventilation then. I was under the impression that the heat complaints had to do with the 13' problem that everyone talks about. Not the normal personally uncomfortable heat that becomes trapped under the same plastic that has been on the machines since their inception in 2010. cool!

 

[nhoj]

Exactly. Water cooled exhaust. ...So, that tells you even more that a properly tuned engine does not produce heat concerns nor need any airflow across the surface for cooling.

I'm confused by your statement above. In a motor vessel the water cooled exhaust removes the heat and sends it out the exhaust as 'hot water'. Point here is it 'removes the heat'. Even a poorly tuned marine engine will remove that heat as long as the water pump(s) are functional. In our Spyders the headers are the largest source of heat and unless that heat is removed particularly under the tuperware you may experience previous described heat issues.

 

[Dan McNally]

The most "fatuous" statement in this thread is that almost half of the 2013 owners are experiencing heat problems. With thousands of owners, you can't take a survey with only a handful of responses and draw any legitimate conclusions. Based on dealer reports of the percentage of 2013 spyders showing any evidence of excessive heat while performing the recall work, the actual number of "problem spyders" appears to be very low, most likely in the single digit percentages.

The vast majority of spyder owners have expressed nothing but support and encouragement on this forum to those few riders who are experiencing excess heat. I'm thankful my 2013 hasn't shown any problems, and I hope the ones that do run hot are fixed asap so everyone can get on the road and enjoy their ride. But it does get so, so tiring reading the constant complaints about the 2013's, and the all too frequent advice from some that no one should even consider buying a 2013 because they are all worthless. It's simply not true. With a vocal minority throwing all of the 2013's into the category of worthless because a few have problems, it's no wonder the trade-in value for everyone is low.

Again, I'm sorry if you have excessive heat, but please try to keep things in perspective and avoid inflammatory claims that do no good for anyone. :gaah:

I thought this forum was to discuss issues, and hopefully resolve them. I did not say that " almost half of the 2013 owners are experiencing heat problems." I said: ". . . almost half of 2013 Spyder riders are experienceing, according to the survey someone else conducted here . . . " There is a huge difference between those two statements. I refered to the survey results, not every Spyder ever produced.

 

[DrewNJ]

I'm confused by your statement above. In a motor vessel the water cooled exhaust removes the heat and sends it out the exhaust as 'hot water'. Point here is it 'removes the heat'. Even a poorly tuned marine engine will remove that heat as long as the water pump(s) are functional. In our Spyders the headers are the largest source of heat and unless that heat is removed particularly under the tuperware you may experience previous described heat issues.

Take the exhaust out of the equation. It's a moot point and in relation to the ski serves as proof that a properly tuned water cooled motor needs no ambient surface airflow to keep the motor running as cool as it was designed. A water cooled motor improperly tuned CAN overheat in any application. Especially closed loop cooling. Regardless of coolant flow.

I dont see how the heat generated by the Spyder exhaust can be the source of heat problems people are complaining about because that exhaust has always been on the Spyder since 08' and in its current design on the rt since 10'.

My initial impression is that the 2013' spyders are tuned VERY lean from the factory. Probably because of all the previous complaints about fuel mileage and brp's attempt to bring that up a bit.
People are having "hit and miss" success with airflow mods because, while they do very little at actually cooling the motor, they do make a noticeable difference in rider comfort and keeping some of the directly adjacent components from melting. Localized hot spots cause components to melt.

My car has all kinds of plastic all over the motor, including a plastic intake manifold and has no melting. It also has no vents or holes cut anywhere for airflow and an open exhaust mani. Nothing melts unless obviously in direct contact with the exhaust.




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