Oil level, what the heck!

[CurtG]

Two questions:

1) Where does the oil go between the engine being hot after a ride and cold after sitting overnight? The difference cant just be the oil temp can it? I know it expands with heating but if we're talking from the bottom of the dipstick to the full mark being a pint that's a lot of expansion.

2) How long do you have to check the level from shutting down after a ride until you wont get a good reading?

Thanks.

Ride safe,

 

[boborgera]

Two questions:

1) Where does the oil go between the engine being hot after a ride and cold after sitting overnight? The difference cant just be the oil temp can it? I know it expands with heating but if we're talking from the bottom of the dipstick to the full mark being a pint that's a lot of expansion.

2) How long do you have to check the level from shutting down after a ride until you wont get a good reading?

Thanks.

Ride safe,

1] It goes from the oil tank back into the crankcase. 2] About a minute, Provided you let the engine idle for a minute before you shut it down...

 

[CurtG]

I guess I may leave it idling while I get the :cus: :cus: panel off. The shut down and read the level. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Thanks.

Ride safe,

 

[NancysToy]

Two questions:

1) Where does the oil go between the engine being hot after a ride and cold after sitting overnight? The difference cant just be the oil temp can it? I know it expands with heating but if we're talking from the bottom of the dipstick to the full mark being a pint that's a lot of expansion.

2) How long do you have to check the level from shutting down after a ride until you wont get a good reading?

Thanks.

Ride safe,

1) The oil can drain back into the crankcase sump, depending on the position of the oil pump gears and how tightly the check mechanism (anti-sumping mechanism) holds. Ideally, no oil drains back, but some always does, especially with the "slipperier" synthetic oils. There is also considerably volume change in the vertically oriented tank, which does change the level. The idea of checking hot is that the hot temperature is fairly constant in a system with an oil cooler.

2) I'd check within a minute or two of last running the engine (in terms of having no oil drained back to the sump). In terms of temperature, any time withing 10-15 mminutes of a ride should be fine...maybe more in warm weather. Just remember to start the engine for at least 30 seconds to evacuate the sump before you check the level, if you don't cjheck immediately. The more consistent your procedure, the more comperable your readings will be.

 

[zbunker]

Ah 'The Old Oil Checking' debate continues.:chat: (Who sez that there ain't no such thing as perpetual motion?) Oh well, I might as well toss in my two cents.
My concern on checking the oil level after running the engine until operating temperature is reached is that that would a heck of a time to find out there was little or no oil in the engine:yikes:
Now I realize there are a lot of folks out there that will be giving me the "Fish Eye" for what I'm about to say, but I think this is a reasonable alternative to the procedure called for.
I started out by checking the oil the "correct way" and got a full reading.
The next day (sitting over night), I checked the oil on the cold engine using a dip stick that is about 15 inches long. I sent the stick in until I hit the bottom of the tank, and measured the oil on the stick. It measured 6 1/2 inches.
With a measurement in that range I feel comfortable with the amount of oil in the engine. As it has been pointed out in the thread, the ambient temperature can have an effect on the oil level, ( I'm in Fla.) but I think as long as I'm a quarter of an inch either side of 6 1/2 inches I'm good.

 

[M&Ms_Spyder]

10-roger that zbunker.

I was spoofed pretty quickly by the oil system on our 2013(only a month old) and the "art" that must be mastered to check the oil. And I am completely "annoyed", for lack of a better term, with the "absence of science", accuracy and consistency one can expect with "oil level shown on the stick" - EVEN if you follow the SAME procedure every time you check the oil level.

I have experienced the oil level on the dip stick showing 1/2 way between add & full, a full 24 hrs or more after parking spydy in the garage. Then the next time I checked it "cold", after sitting a day or two, NO OIL touching the stick at all - bone dry on the stick!! So the oil is going somewhere sometimes and at other times, it is remaining in the reservoir - since it varies so wildly when checking it cold. Apparently sometimes the oil runs back into the engine and sometimes it doesn't.

The first time I did a cold check, and it wasn't touching the stick, I had that Oh-No sinking feeling! How could this be? I had just checked last ride and it was OK. So... being fully aware of this "check it when hot" procedure, which is posted on a sticker right by the dipstick... I added just enough oil so that it barely touched the tip of stick. Then we went on our ride, and when we returned, I followed the "hot check" procedure. Sure enough... showed over the full mark a ways. So.. right then and there, I drained enough out of the tank to where it read "full" on the stick.

However, I must say, that I, like other posters here, believe that being able to check the oil "BEFORE" you take off on a ride is the best time to find out if you're low - not After you ride as the BRP procedure recommends.

Anyway, I think I will try your procedure and see if I can establish a "cold" point of reference in relation to getting a "full" reading after checking it hot, after a ride, after letting it idle for a couple of minutes, shutting it off, immediately take off panel, check level. However, based on "cold" readings I've taken before, even using a stick that will reach the bottom of the reservoir... I suspect it is probable to get wildly varying cold readings because sometimes the oil remains in the reservoir, and sometimes it doesn't.

 

[NancysToy]

.....
I have experienced the oil level on the dip stick showing 1/2 way between add & full, a full 24 hrs or more after parking spydy in the garage. Then the next time I checked it "cold", after sitting a day or two, NO OIL touching the stick at all - bone dry on the stick!! So the oil is going somewhere sometimes and at other times, it is remaining in the reservoir - since it varies so wildly when checking it cold. Apparently sometimes the oil runs back into the engine and sometimes it doesn't. .....

That is absolutely correct. It depends mostly on where the gears in the oil pump stop when you shut it off. The condition of the oil pump, the type of oil used, and the condition of the anti-sumping valve, as well as the ambient temperatures can also affect the flow-back. Flow-back is the reason the engine must be started and run for at least 30 seconds to evacuate the sump before you stop it and check the oil. Having a fairly constant oil temperature, regardless of ambient temperatures, is why the engine should be at full operating temperature.

 

[zbunker]

10-roger that zbunker.

I was spoofed pretty quickly by the oil system on our 2013(only a month old) and the "art" that must be mastered to check the oil. And I am completely "annoyed", for lack of a better term, with the "absence of science", accuracy and consistency one can expect with "oil level shown on the stick" - EVEN if you follow the SAME procedure every time you check the oil level.

I have experienced the oil level on the dip stick showing 1/2 way between add & full, a full 24 hrs or more after parking spydy in the garage. Then the next time I checked it "cold", after sitting a day or two, NO OIL touching the stick at all - bone dry on the stick!! So the oil is going somewhere sometimes and at other times, it is remaining in the reservoir - since it varies so wildly when checking it cold. Apparently sometimes the oil runs back into the engine and sometimes it doesn't.

The first time I did a cold check, and it wasn't touching the stick, I had that Oh-No sinking feeling! How could this be? I had just checked last ride and it was OK. So... being fully aware of this "check it when hot" procedure, which is posted on a sticker right by the dipstick... I added just enough oil so that it barely touched the tip of stick. Then we went on our ride, and when we returned, I followed the "hot check" procedure. Sure enough... showed over the full mark a ways. So.. right then and there, I drained enough out of the tank to where it read "full" on the stick.

However, I must say, that I, like other posters here, believe that being able to check the oil "BEFORE" you take off on a ride is the best time to find out if you're low - not After you ride as the BRP procedure recommends.

Anyway, I think I will try your procedure and see if I can establish a "cold" point of reference in relation to getting a "full" reading after checking it hot, after a ride, after letting it idle for a couple of minutes, shutting it off, immediately take off panel, check level. However, based on "cold" readings I've taken before, even using a stick that will reach the bottom of the reservoir... I suspect it is probable to get wildly varying cold readings because sometimes the oil remains in the reservoir, and sometimes it doesn't.

Glad to hear you are going to try taking cold readings.
(keep me honest :thumbup:. Thought I was a just a voice crying in the dark)
You mentioned about getting readings that varied so much. That I can't answer. Perhaps temperature plays a factor. I'm in Florida, and it's either hot and dry or hot and wet:joke: What I have found that in taking readings (with a long stick) on a cold engine that has sat overnight, comes up in the 6 1/2 inch neighborhood. (which is full measuring the "correct" way) Now if I get a reading somewhere in the five inch or below, then it would be time for a reading done the "correct" way. But at any rate, one thing this method proves is that you would "know" if there is enough oil to safely operate the engine. Ron

 

[Desert Spyder]

So getting back to the Dudley method and the last posts stating 6-1/2 in from the bottom, how high from the bottom of the reservoir is the dip stick? After riding for hours in 100+ temps the last thing I want to do is tell my wife not now, I need to check my dipstick. Somebody slap me.

Freaking Spyders. We need a MS degree to own them.

 

[zbunker]

So getting back to the Dudley method and the last posts stating 6-1/2 in from the bottom, how high from the bottom of the reservoir is the dip stick? After riding for hours in 100+ temps the last thing I want to do is tell my wife not now, I need to check my dipstick. Somebody slap me.

Freaking Spyders. We need a MS degree to own them.

I agree. You should never keep your lady waiting. (Another advantage to this method) As a matter of fact from the bottom of my reservoir tank to the top thread is 10 1/2 inches. The "REAL" dip stick from the top of the 'O' ring measures 4 inches. It appears that when taking a cold reading, the oil level will be just under the "REAL" stick.

Today, about 5 hours after a ride I measured 7 inches on the "BIG" stick and about 1/2 full on the "REAL" stick.

All I am saying here is that if you get a cold engine oil reading somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 1/2 inches, and then go out and do 100 MPH, one of you lesser concerns will be if you have an adequate amount of oil.

 

[Desert Spyder]

I agree. You should never keep your lady waiting. (Another advantage to this method) As a matter of fact from the bottom of my reservoir tank to the top thread is 10 1/2 inches. The "REAL" dip stick from the top of the 'O' ring measures 4 inches. It appears that when taking a cold reading, the oil level will be just under the "REAL" stick.

Today, about 5 hours after a ride I measured 7 inches on the "BIG" stick and about 1/2 full on the "REAL" stick.

All I am saying here is that if you get a cold engine oil reading somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 1/2 inches, and then go out and do 100 MPH, one of you lesser concerns will be if you have an adequate amount of oil.

So Dudley's method of looking for cold oil on the bottom of the stick, though this contradicts the manual, is not incorrect because there will be the same amount of oil in the bike as when checked when the oil is properly checked. I know Doc feels the same way. He told me once that BRP should put in a larger dip stick and stop the farting around.