Laser Alignment

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

THE DIFFERENCE

I hate these post . What the hay is going on ? Is every spyder ever manufactured out of alignment ? There is no way that a 30,000 + Spyder should leave the plant out of alignment .In 45 years of driving cars I have never had an alignment !!:dontknow:

BRP is only concerned with getting your alignment " close " and probably 50 % are but 50 % are not ..........ROLO ( Outlaw ) LAZER is going for ...PERFECT...and with the equipement they have designed ( originally for NASCAR ) CAN ACHIEVE PERFECT..........it's as simple as that.....just get it done........IMHO ....Mike :thumbup:

 

[Lamonster]

Good explanation. (I love the analogy, too, having spent some time in tail-draggers myself.) I will add one more thing. The Spyder's suspension geometry is such that the toe-in changes as it is loaded and unloaded. That means that no matter how precise the factory sets the alignment, it will be different for each rider under actual road conditions. The factory can't know what weight rider will own which machine or where an owner will set his/her suspension preload (pre-2013), so they shoot for an average number at best. The BRP procedure does not allow the suspension to be loaded during alignment, so it can't compensate without extensive trial and error adjustments. The Outlaw laser procedure can dial things in more precisely, plus they have observed and calculated the necessary compensation adjustments. Is laser alignment necessary...not for some riders, but if you are having problems, ride mostly two-up, have changed suspension settings or components, or have damaged the suspension, an aftrermarket alignment is probably adviseable. JMHO

BRP does load the suspension at the factory and it changes at most 1/2" with a 300lb+ rider.

 

[SpyderDen]

Lamont and Harvey did the procedure today on my 2011 RTS SE5. I have Elkas, Bajaron antiswaybar, Pitbull shock relocators installed. The biggest change that I noticed was while taking our less than Tail of Dragon type turns, the Spyder wanted to make the turn on its own. Very little input needed from the rider. Thanks Lamont and Harvey.

 

[NancysToy]

BRP does load the suspension at the factory and it changes at most 1/2" with a 300lb+ rider.

The important number is really the amount of toe-in change as the suspension is loaded, not how far the suspension moves. BRP does a much better job for an "average" weight rider than they used to. The increased toe-in spec helped, too. Heavy riders still have trouble (or at least they did up through 2012). That's one reason the raised ride height brought on by Elka shocks helped. The factory system is not the difficulty, it is the change in toe caused by the suspension geometry, and the difficulty in making compensating adjustments when using the BRP shop manual procedure. If there were no problems there would be no need for a system like Outlaw alignment. JMHO

 

[BajaRon]

The important number is really the amount of toe-in change as the suspension is loaded, not how far the suspension moves. BRP does a much better job for an "average" weight rider than they used to. The increased toe-in spec helped, too. Heavy riders still have trouble (or at least they did up through 2012). That's one reason the raised ride height brought on by Elka shocks helped. The factory system is not the difficulty, it is the change in toe caused by the suspension geometry, and the difficulty in making compensating adjustments when using the BRP shop manual procedure. If there were no problems there would be no need for a system like Outlaw alignment. JMHO

There is more too it than this as the 'Out Of Alignment' numbers are many times different on each side. If it were a simple matter of more or less weight causing misalignment you would get the same amount of out of spec. deflection on each side.

When one side is 1-1/2" out and the other side is 3/4" out that's just bad alignment. That is also why bad front tire wear is many times worse on one side than it is on the other.

No amount of ride height adjustment is going to compensate for this.

 

[NancysToy]

There is more too it than this as the 'Out Of Alignment' numbers are many times different on each side. If it were a simple matter of more or less weight causing misalignment you would get the same amount of out of spec. deflection on each side.

When one side is 1-1/2" out and the other side is 3/4" out that's just bad alignment. That is also why bad front tire wear is many times worse on one side than it is on the other.

No amount of ride height adjustment is going to compensate for this.

Those numbers are measured from the rear wheel and not the frame, so they shouldn't be compared any more than a two-wheel automotive alignment should be directly compared to a four-wheel alignment. All-wheel alignment will always be more accurate. The distance at which these numbers are measured is quite different, too. That makes it easier to measure by the Outlaw system, but makes the problem appear far worse than it is.

 

[BajaRon]

Those numbers are measured from the rear wheel and not the frame, so they shouldn't be compared any more than a two-wheel automotive alignment should be directly compared to a four-wheel alignment. All-wheel alignment will always be more accurate. The distance at which these numbers are measured is quite different, too. That makes it easier to measure by the Outlaw system, but makes the problem appear far worse than it is.

True, when you have a longer measuring distance, smaller errors are easier to detect and appear worse. Like using a magnifying glass. On the other hand, it also gives you a more accurate result.

But it seems to me that if both the BRP frame reference method and the Laser/rear wheel reference method were accurate, then both would give identical, or at least nearly the same results. We are not talking about fixing dealership or back yard mechanic alignments. We are talking BRP factory/assembly line alignments.

Because these 2 methods do not turn out the same results, there are only 3 possibilities here.

1- BRP's method is accurate and the Laser method is not
2- Laser method is accurate and BRP's method is not
3- Neither one is accurate

Seems to me that customer feedback is telling us which of these are true.

I'm not trying to sell anything here as I do not have a horse in this race.

 

[Redjim]

I too had my 2011 RTS SE5 aligned by Lamont and Harvey today. I have Elka shocks and BajaRon sway bar. After installing them the change in the handling of my spyder was like night and day. However after the alignment, it tracked like it was on rails. A minor front end vibration was gone and the tracking in a turn was excellent. It is well worth having the bike aligned. Thanks Lamont and Harvey.

 

[NancysToy]

True, when you have a longer measuring distance, smaller errors are easier to detect and appear worse. Like using a magnifying glass. On the other hand, it also gives you a more accurate result.

But it seems to me that if both the BRP frame reference method and the Laser/rear wheel reference method were accurate, then both would give identical, or at least nearly the same results. We are not talking about fixing dealership or back yard mechanic alignments. We are talking BRP factory/assembly line alignments.

Because these 2 methods do not turn out the same results, there are only 3 possibilities here.

1- BRP's method is accurate and the Laser method is not
2- Laser method is accurate and BRP's method is not
3- Neither one is accurate

Seems to me that customer feedback is telling us which of these are true.

I'm not trying to sell anything here as I do not have a horse in this race.

Keep in mind that belt alignment, and thus rear wheel alignment, is variable, and has a range of acceptable values. That means the 3-wheel alignment can differ depending on the belt adjustment...and can change if the belt is adjusted later. Ideally, you would adjust the rear wheel and belt based on the frame, with no tolerance in the setting, then adjust center the steering and adjust the fronts to the frame also. Then both systems would jive. The real world is different, however, and to some extent this is an apples and oranges conversation.

 

[BajaRon]

Keep in mind that belt alignment, and thus rear wheel alignment, is variable, and has a range of acceptable values. That means the 3-wheel alignment can differ depending on the belt adjustment...and can change if the belt is adjusted later. Ideally, you would adjust the rear wheel and belt based on the frame, with no tolerance in the setting, then adjust center the steering and adjust the fronts to the frame also. Then both systems would jive. The real world is different, however, and to some extent this is an apples and oranges conversation.

I can agree with the Apples/Oranges to a point. We have 2 approaches attempting to reach the same end.

And while there is potential variance in rear wheel alignment which would affect the Laser approach but not the Frame method, where the belt rides on the rear pulley is a pretty precise indicator of correct adjustment. Correct rear wheel alignment should be the same regardless of which front wheel alignment method is used.

I think it is a good conversation. Gives the opportunity to consider another perspective.

 

[SNOOPY]

With rear wheel alignment being so crucial, I take it that each time you have the rear wheel replaced and/or belt aligned you would need a new laser alignment?

 

[NancysToy]

I can agree with the Apples/Oranges to a point. We have 2 approaches attempting to reach the same end.

And while there is potential variance in rear wheel alignment which would affect the Laser approach but not the Frame method, where the belt rides on the rear pulley is a pretty precise indicator of correct adjustment. Correct rear wheel alignment should be the same regardless of which front wheel alignment method is used.

I think it is a good conversation. Gives the opportunity to consider another perspective.

I'm not so sure. A 1 mm variation in the belt would be about 1/2 inch at six feet. It makes more difference than you would think. At any rate, the laser method is more accurate, aligns the entire machine, and can be done with the Spyder on the ground. It is quicker, and as far as I am concerned easier. I recommend it, especially for those having problems that must be corrected...poor front tire wear, pulling to one side, etc.

 

[BajaRon]

With rear wheel alignment being so crucial, I take it that each time you have the rear wheel replaced and/or belt aligned you would need a new laser alignment?

One of the laser guys would know better but I don't think so.

 

[Sny]

I will add one more thing. The Spyder's suspension geometry is such that the toe-in changes as it is loaded and unloaded. That means that no matter how precise the factory sets the alignment, it will be different for each rider under actual road conditions.

I was under the impression that the unequal length arms result in changes to the camber when loaded/unloaded.

To compensate for your camber being off, if you have adjustable shocks, you can adjust your preload then check the camber with the suspension loaded... found out the fox shocks that BRP offers for the 2013 ST are not the same length as stock (they're shorter) which throws off the camber. Add a heavy rider and cargo and it's off even more.

Is toe affected as well? I guess it could be... the control arms are not parallel to the A-arms in either plane.

So now we get camber and toe effected by ride height... and all the bump steer of a track-only race car.

It's great so long as you don't add or remove any significant weight that would change ride height... and so long as it's a nice flat track...

But it makes you wonder why BRP thought this new suspension geometry was a good idea.

 

[Sny]

Oh... and the laser alignment helped mine quite a bit. Was 1" in on the right and 7/8" in on the left (at least they were close to even).

After setting them back to 0'ish, I no longer have that wandering feel I had at Interstate speeds... and it run's straight as could be, hands off the bars at 101mph.

Also cleaned up much of the rutting around it did at 40-60mph on both grooved and worn roads.

Worth every penny.

 

[Bob Ledford]

Outlaw Alignment Saturday

Although we did not need the alignment procedure done as it was checked previously by Mike we took the time to ride down there from Daytona Beach. What we found was a lot of Spyder Ryders and their machine milling around some enjoying the Open House eats and a lot standing out side looking inside at all the work going on inside. Mike and Krystal had reorganized the floor space into a production line and everybody was all business. There was some socializing going on but everyone was more concerned about where the laser was pointing.

Thank you everyone that contributed to a successful day at Outlaw Alignment from another Spyder Ryder....

 

[Jeriatric]

With rear wheel alignment being so crucial, I take it that each time you have the rear wheel replaced and/or belt aligned you would need a new laser alignment?

One of the laser guys would know better but I don't think so.

Hope they chime in.

 

[ElZorroRides]

The wife and I both had our bikes done yesterday and we can both honestly say it is money well spent. The bikes both ride by far way better than what they did before we rode into the shop. This wife's bike was done by Lamont and Harvey. Mine was handled by the Outlaw crew. Both teams did a fantastic job and the Outlaw gang...lol, were exceptional hosts. Thank you to the whole group for everything. We are very happy with the results with over 300 miles since the alignments being done.
:clap: :thumbup:

 

[docdoru]

I'll be there tomorrow @ 1330 with the 2008 Silver Dream; just to verify that speed self correct the alignment...

One of the worst that Lamonster and Harvey did: toe out 1" 1/2 left, toe out 2" 1/2 right :yikes:
The results: better than ever ridding (both sharp left and right at high speed) + constant 30 miles/tank better mileage!!!
Elka's stage 3, BR sway bar, Michelin 225/55/15 rear. 238K miles.

 

[jimb57]

Does a leaking air bladder have any effect on the way my spyder tracks down the road? that thing has been leaking since day 1 and has been replaced and now needs replaced again:banghead: I do have rons sway bar installed which improved cornering by 100 percent , dealership also replaced front shocks and that helped a little, the mechanic said runs straight i disagree also asked them to check alignment they said lets try shocks first.