Is it possible to do an Oil Change without a lift?

[FlyingBoat]

I would NEVER suck out the oil where the engine was designed with a plug to let it drain out the bottom. Sucking out the oil just will NOT get all the containments that DRAINING will get out of the engine. Yes, some of these oil change places do this, but I don't take my vehicles to them. I think years ago I heard that a Honda car engine was designed like this, to suck out the oil vs a drain plug. So for me, I will never suck out oil out of any vehicle engine that has a drain plug

The Mercedes dealers suck the oil out. They don't drain it and their cars do have drain plugs. (My Crossfire is a Mercedes built engine). So I do the same.

I wonder if we analyzed the oil for example on a Spyder with 6K miles vs one with 1K, but 12 months time. Which oil do you think would be in better shape? I don't know, but I think the 12 months and little miles would be in better shape. It would certainly be in better shape than a Spyder after 9.3K miles, right?

I am thinking that the oil in the Spyder which had the oil sucked out after 1 year and 1K and replaced with fresh oil would be in better shape than the Spyder which kept the same oil from 4 to 9.3K during the year.

Could there be some contaminant? Sure. There is also some contaminant in a Spyder with 4.7K, right? And yet you don't change at 4.7k.

But I don't know. I don't know if the tube gets down far enough to reach the bottom of the pan.

I was hearing of oil changes costing close to $500. If that is the case it may be worth while to have it tested. Particularly if you are only putting 2K or so on in a year.

Maybe I will do that. If I run only 2K in a year, I will suck it out. Put in fresh and have it analyzed and compared to your Spyder with 4.7K on the oil change. Which do you think will have worse results?

 

[Woodaddict]

With the Spyder sitting for mostly 3 yrs and only 1,000 miles. There will be condensation moisture in there. With being a new Spyder owner, there is NO oil pan as such. Its a Dry Sump operation. Which is an internal oil tank, with scavenge pumps that pump the oil around. The manual states change oil 9,300 miles OR 1 yr whichever comes first. I do go past the 1 yr mark, as its in a garage and I do ride some of each month. There are many threads about that you can enlighten yourself by searching. I do use 5w-40 FULL synthetic.

There has also been oil test threads, find by searching.

Please read your manual for HOW to fill and CHECK the oil level, its not like anything you've probably encountered.

If you do it yourself, there are 2 drain plugs

 

[FlyingBoat]

Yes, I see a lot on the testing. My only thought was for low usage it may be better to replace the oil easily in a year, to remove moisture, than to keep it in for several years, as some have done. Low usage should have less contaminant, so not too concerned about the filter, or some oil at the bottom that didn't get drained.

Yes, drain and new filter would always be better. But then, why not do it at 500 miles? There is always a tradeoff. If a bike is ridden 2K in a year, it may be better to suck out the oil, keep the filter, and put in fresh for another year. That bike ridden for the next year may have better oil than some other Spyder's oil riding at 4K to 9.3K. I may try it and test it.

Like you said, the concern with longevity is moisture. It isn't a contaminant issue, its a time related condensation issue. So remove most of the oil at the year interval, and do a full change at 9300 miles or probably a bit less.

I am just trying to get out of the 1 year change interval if I end up with little use. I have put about 1K on my bikes/year in the past, but it was only a $10 oil change cost on my Reflex.

Not an expert and I don't pretend to be.

 

[Woodaddict]

I have been enlightened on this forum about low usage and sitting long times without oil changes such as yours. That is more of a problem than being used and driven. You're way up north, susceptible to very cold temps and condensation. Acids can't get burnt off by riding more frequently. Why don't you just change the oil by drain plugs and have a new baseline to go by??

We need BajaRon to give his opinion here.

 

[Peter Aawen]

The Mercedes dealers suck the oil out. They don't drain it and their cars do have drain plugs. (My Crossfire is a Mercedes built engine)...

Hmmm, let's just consider who is set to gain the most from doing this??

You?? Cos it's cheaper for you, they charge you less, and they don't take up so much of your valuable time maybe?? You DO pay significantly less for an oil change done this way, don't you?? :dontknow:

Or the dealer, cos it costs them somewhat less to take a shortcut/easy method in both time & wages, cos by sucking the oil out of the engine & risking leaving all the collected condensate/water & the heavier crud & contaminants in there they can do many more 'oil changes' per hour instead of maybe doing just one or two an hour by using the proven reliable method that's advised & recommended by most manufacturers & owners/operators in the industry; and they don't hafta train up or pay a 'tech' to do a proper 'oil & filter' change job; and cos when your engine fails due to a poor oil change regime that left some or all of the condensate/water contaminated with any heavier, settled out crud that the oil couldn't carry in the engine &/or sump & in/behind the filters etc while sucking all the lighter, cleaner, floaty stuff off the top, they'll still likely get any repair/replace jobs anyway, since they've been sooo great looking at after your car for you that you'll consider them first! :banghead :

Even IF Mercedes sanctions this process (which may be a whole 'nuther question ) then they/the dealer are just playing the odds - they've probably done their sums and worked out that the odds are that MOST cars that have their oil changed like this will still reach/pass their warranty age/milage anyway, so the one or two that don't last that long still won't cost as much to replace as they will've saved/taken by then using the dodgy brothers oil change method, so it doesn't really matter to them if just a few fail before their warranty expires; and if they fail after that, who really cares, cos the suck... errr, owner will pay for it anyway! :banghead: But that's OK, no skin off their noses nor any cost to them whatever way it goes down - YOU pay your money and take your chances, and YOU take all the risks... :gaah:

And I guess, since it's YOUR Spyder, YOU can do the same with that too. Just Sayin' :bdh:

 

[Sarge707]

The Mercedes dealers suck the oil out. They don't drain it and their cars do have drain plugs. (My Crossfire is a Mercedes built engine). So I do the same.

I wonder if we analyzed the oil for example on a Spyder with 6K miles vs one with 1K, but 12 months time. Which oil do you think would be in better shape? I don't know, but I think the 12 months and little miles would be in better shape. It would certainly be in better shape than a Spyder after 9.3K miles, right?

I am thinking that the oil in the Spyder which had the oil sucked out after 1 year and 1K and replaced with fresh oil would be in better shape than the Spyder which kept the same oil from 4 to 9.3K during the year.

Could there be some contaminant? Sure. There is also some contaminant in a Spyder with 4.7K, right? And yet you don't change at 4.7k.

But I don't know. I don't know if the tube gets down far enough to reach the bottom of the pan.

I was hearing of oil changes costing close to $500. If that is the case it may be worth while to have it tested. Particularly if you are only putting 2K or so on in a year.

Maybe I will do that. If I run only 2K in a year, I will suck it out. Put in fresh and have it analyzed and compared to your Spyder with 4.7K on the oil change. Which do you think will have worse results?

As I said above nothing wrong with extracting the 4 of 5 quarts , especially if you only do 3 thousand a year and change oil and filter every 12 months. Now the Ryker only has 3.5 quarts and you can only extract 1.5 quarts (Someone tried) SO I drain the ryker every year. The design of the 1330 allows the full 4 quarts extraction.

 

[T.P.]

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_8216120
Not a bad idea to put one of these drip pans under your drain pan to keep your floor clean and dry.
T.P.

 

[TheMariner]

I agree with Peter & Woodaddict on this one. The dealers are just doing it as a cost-saver for them, not because it's as good or better for the customer compared to manual draining. It's quicker, not as messy & doesn't tie-up a vehicle lift. They don't give a rats if all the old oil & crud is removed or not.

 

[FlyingBoat]

Originally Answered: Official Benz dealer changes Oil by vaccum/extraction from the top, do you think that it is acceptable?
Official Benz dealer changes Oil by vaccum/extraction from the top, do you think that it is acceptable?

This is a very acceptable way of removing oil from a sump. It is common in marine use and probably other applications for decades. It does not leave any more oil in the sump than a drain plug does. As an added benefit nobody can screw up the drain pug creating a leak.

Bonus no oil is spilled or on your hands.

Double bonus I dont need a crush washer torque wrench and socket or need to look up the torque specks for that drain plug. No jack, jack-stands, creeper or under car oil drain bucket either.

DATE: July 1997
SUBJECT:
ALL MODELS
OIL EVACUATION EQUIPMENT
Mercedes-Benz engines are designed to allow engine oil extraction from under the hood via the dipstick tube. The dipstick tube has an enlarged cross section and a formed extension at the top end. On the other side it ends a short distance from the oil pan bottom. Engine oil can be extracted using the dipstick tube.

Engine oil drain plugs will continue for the time being, although access to them may only be possible with the removal of engine compartment trim or noise encapsulation panels.

So Mercedes is designed for extract all of the oil.

A bit concerning seeing that only 4 of the 5 quarts come out of a 1330.
I was hoping for more than that.

Still that leaves an oil change that is perhaps 80% clean.

Could be good for low usage in a year, until getting to 9300 over a longer period.

You do you. You can run with oil that is at least 50% dirty and getting worse say from 4.7 to 9.3K.
I will run with oil that is at least 80% clean and that other 20% with a k or 2 on it.
Which do you think is worse?

If it was more like 95% of the oil was removed from suction I would feel better about it though.

You can argue that suction doesn't remove the crud at the bottom.
So which do you think has more crud an engine with 1K at 12 months, or an engine with 4.7K at 6 months? Or even an engine with 2K at six months.
So why aren't you changing your oil every 2K miles if you think running oil that is 80% clean is bad?

 

[Woodaddict]

Some items to think about.

Crush washers can be reused. Don't use a torque wrench on the plug, just tighten it firmly. Torquing it down can lead to problems, as you will have oil on the threads which leads to higher torque levels.
I'll differ on my opinion about getting all the oil out of Spyder by suction; just giving what I do, you can do as you please.

 

[pegasus1300]

Something else to chew on, a copper washer is not a "crush" washer. You can tighten that drain plug until you strip the threads, but it is not going to get any flatter than it already is. And the most expensive torque wrench you can buy is not going to crush it either. It is a plain copper flat washer from the factory and that's all you need to replace it with.
As for suction, Mercedes says its engine is designed for that kind of change. Our Rotax engines are not, but if you have the equipment, go for it. I don't, so I will continue in the old method.

 

[FlyingBoat]

Sarge707. I tried it and was only able to get 3.6 of the 5.3 by suction on my 2014 RT. So doesn't look like this is going to work well for me.

I could put it on my inclined driveway.
Anyone have an idea whether having the front or back higher would put more oil at the dipstick, or even side to side?

I am thinking, maybe nose down the driveway may flow more oil to suction.

At least I picked up Rotella T6 for $6.35/gallon after rebate. So I will put that in and do a full oil change later, after getting Jack's and stands, etc.

I just downsized last year and got rid of these and was hoping not to need to buy and store these items again. But then I got this Spyder, after my easy to maintain scooter just croaked.

 

[Gwolf]

Of course it is possible to change the oil without a lift. In fact, it is really easy, if you have a fully equiped shop where you work on various kinds of vehicles. I don't have a lift, and don't ever plan to get one. It would just be another large piece of equpiment in the way most of the time.

I do have a couple of roll under floor jacks that go down to around 2.5 inches of the floor, and several more various size jug jacks. Also got 2 different sets of steel ramps and a couple of platform scissor lifts. Got a roll-around hydraulic engine crane, and maybe half a dozen safety jack stands.

I can have the Spyder off the floor and on a steady base, high enough to slide drain pan with 6 inch sides, in just a few minutes. It will come back down, just as fast.

I do understand that having a well equipped work space is probably not very practical when working in a small space, like a garage or utility shed.

 

[bikerbillone]

Something else to chew on, a copper washer is not a "crush" washer. You can tighten that drain plug until you strip the threads, but it is not going to get any flatter than it already is. And the most expensive torque wrench you can buy is not going to crush it either. It is a plain copper flat washer from the factory and that's all you need to replace it with.
As for suction, Mercedes says its engine is designed for that kind of change. Our Rotax engines are not, but if you have the equipment, go for it. I don't, so I will continue in the old method.

Agree Paul, we all have choices, I'm old school, and I have Lamonster gold plugs, not a big job to drain. I am buying some pig mats though, I cannot keep oil splatter off the concrete floor. I'm just gonna accept it. :thumbup:

 

[BajaRon]

I agree with Woodaddict (Post #30) and pegasus1300 (Post #31).

When I hear 'Acceptable'. I always ask, 'Acceptable to who?' (or is it Whom? Never did figure that one out).

There is Acceptable and then there is BEST! I too use acceptable depending on the job. But for oil changes, I like best. Though in a pinch, acceptable would also work for me. Especially if you throw in a full drain from time to time.