Helmet - No comment needed.

[Bob Denman]

As far as wanting a republic or democracy, I leave that for others whom are more knowledgeable.

It doesn't matter... The Missus is in charge anyway! :shocked: :gaah:

 

[MRH]

In reply to the several responses to my post. Essentially, I think that everybody ought to wear a helmet. I, however, respect the more extreme view that it is a mater of choice. For those who hold to that, and want to add a high degree of danger to their riding, you should be able to do what you like provided you are willing to accept the consequences of the additional risk on your own. You can either insure the risk (a policy that covers riding without a helmet), or take it on yourself.

To me, you can't have it both ways - because otherwise if you don't wear a helmet then I pay for it one way or another, simply as another insured driver or as a tax payer.

I think that as a society, on public and shared roads, there must be a balance between rights and responsibilities. I don't buy slippery slope arguments from either side - and in the end the exact decisions we make will always be a little arbitrary (just where to draw the line). If you want to live outside of those rules, so be it, but do so at your own risk and cost. If you can't afford it, or choose not to, then put the piece of plastic over your head and get over it.

 

[bscrive]

I remember a story a few years ago about a guy in NY that died while protesting the helmet law in that state. I guess he fell off his bike and hit his head and died. It was while he was going slow as well and I remember the comment from the police officer saying that if he had a helmet on he would have easily walked away from it.

Even though we here in Canada are mandated to wearing a helmet by law, I can see the enjoyment some would get from not wearing one. In my youth I used to ride my motorcycle on the road at night with no helmet and is seemed really cool to me at the time. But, especially after I had my motorcycle accident in 1984 I saw first hand the benefit of wearing a helmet. Had I not had one that day my mom and dad would have had to a funeral to go to or even worst, a son in a vegetative state to look after.

Each person should have the right to choose but the problem is that few people look at the ramifications of their actions. They always think it will never happen to them until it does and then the family is left to pick up the pieces or they have the burden of looking after this person because of the decision they made.

 

[Bob Denman]

Everybody seems to think that living forever is guaranteed...
And then; something happens, and it's too late! :shocked:
I like wearing a helmet, and am uncomfortable without one; I just don't think that helmet laws are the best way to deal with this issue.

 

[HuckFin]

My previous comment was a bit of tongue and cheek. It seems that some feel that those that ride helmet less and are in an accident should be left to suffer if they can't afford medical care on their own. That means those whom sustain a TBI would be left to die or a be a vegetable as an example. I certainly don't like to pay for someone else's preventable (maybe) injuries; however, they still need medical care. My answer is, someday you may be a patient of mine for physical therapy and your insurance or lack thereof will not affect my treatment.

As far as wanting a republic or democracy, I leave that for others whom are more knowledgeable.

A Republic is what our founding fathers wanted and is what we have (a constitutional Republic).... but there has been a steady erosion towards a Democracy.

 

[arntufun]

We always wear a helmet.......Whats your views on flip flops, shorts and tank tops ????????? :roflblack:

 

[Bob Denman]

We think that Holly looks great in them! :2thumbs:
You; not so much! :shocked:

 

[ARtraveler]

We always wear a helmet.......Whats your views on flip flops, shorts and tank tops ????????? :roflblack:

View attachment 85814

Very nice pictures. :thumbup::thumbup: I wont make any safety comments. They have been covered well. :thumbup:

 

[Bob Denman]

:agree: look up "Hot Feet!!!!!!!!!" in the GS/RS Shoptalk section...
We discuss Road Rash a little bit... :shocked:

 

[Netminder]

We always wear a helmet.......Whats your views on flip flops, shorts and tank tops ????????? :roflblack:

View attachment 85814

And I thought Bob was good at getting a post moving along!!!:joke:

 

[otter28169]

Risk assessment eh?

When I was nine I slid acrossed a linoleum floor and crashed through an old window and fell 15 feet, head first, onto the lawn. When I came to for a few seconds, on my way to the hospital, I looked down and saw a deep gash on my thigh, and could see my femoral artery pulsating with each heartbeat.

When I was 14 I was cleaning the barn when the bull got loose and came racing through the barn and would have pinned me against the wall if I had not been able to jump in the feed cart.

Almost 7 years ago I went to the Doctor about feeling a little "weezy". After several tests, including a contrast MRI, It was determined hat I had a large DVT in my left leg and 5, yes I said 5, Pulmonary emboli. It was then that I find out that my genetics are to blame.

Just last November 15th I was clearing dead trees for a friend when a "widow maker" dropped approximately 40 feet down from nearby tree and tore open my scalp and left hand. I woke up just before I was air lifted to a nearby trauma center, all because I left my hardhat behind the seat of my truck.

I live with risk every day. I have never ridden my sleds without a helmet, and will never ride on the spyder without one either. I do, however, ride too fast at times. Pick your poison, there is risk everywhere.

That being said.............If you want to ride without one that is your choice. As an EMT I can tell you that you will receive the same care from your EMS providers whether you do or not.

Just sayin'............

 

[Doktor]

I really didn't intend for this thread to become a debate about individual rights to choose to wear a helmet or not. In summary, my view is:

1. Everyone has the right to decide for themselves, as an adult, whether or not to wear a helmet.
2. Statics show that wearing a helmet greatly reduces the likelihood of head injury in an accident. See the quotes and links below.
3. Every injured person will receive medical care, paid for by an insurance pool, or a taxpayer pool.
4. Many, if not most, of killed riders leave behind financial liabilities.
5. All the members of the pool contribute to the cost of that medical care.
6. All the members of the pool accept the risk that ordinary activities of life may result in an accident. Ordinary excludes high risk activities that are not usual activities engaged in by members of the pool and are totally optional for one's life. Many life insurance policies exclude coverage for sky diving, bungee jumping, etc.
7. The rider who suffers greater injuries, or death, because of not wearing a helmet, places a greater burden on the pool that is paying for his treatment and care.
8. No person who willingly, by his actions, potentially places a greater burden on the pool than is reasonably necessary, has a right to ask that pool to pay the increased costs because of his decision.
9. To identify the extent to which a person's injuries are directly attributable to not wearing a helmet, is virtually impossible.
10. An arbitrary charge to that person of an amount that hurts financially, but is not unduly excessive, is why I toss out the figure of $50,000.
11. Such a charge allows a rider to exercise his right to not wear a helmet, but attaches a reasonable cost to that decision if he is injured in an accident.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/safebike/costs.html


http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6123a1.htm


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD004333.pub3/abstract [A fee is charged to access the full report.]

http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/falls/adultfalls.html

Based on these statistics, we are more likely to suffer TBI (traumatic brain injury) from falls in our homes, and far more likely to succumb to those injuries, than on a motorcycle. By this, we can suggest that our government require everyone to put on a helmet as soon as we walk through the door, or would we be better off being homeless. We need to take our well-being away from the beaurocrats, as well as the self-proclaimed, "we must save the whole world from ourselves" do-gooders.
I've only had 2 of them, but, I have seen the results of a helmets saving the lives of people that wished that they had NOT been saved by their helmets, they'd t-boned a car right in the rear door, the roof had pushed the helmet such that it rotated the back of the helmet around so that it sheared their spinal cords so that they were completely paralyzed, ones total life's work became letting student nurses put catheters into his bladder so they could learn how it was done, his wife miscarried their first child, and was never able to conceive again. How do I know, you might ask, he was the first patient I had to catheterize. Yes, he survived, but quality of life should mean something, too!


Doc

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Sadly, the man who was the subject of my first post, died Friday about noon. Would wearing a helmet have saved him, and allowed him to have a good life, we will never know.

 

[cptjam]

All the gear, all the time.
As a MSF instructor, I see the data. It is factual, math based, statistics.
All the gear, all the time.

 

[Jeriatric]

Comparrisons

Truth is, we're all more likely to need a helmet than the heater thats packed for safety's sake.

Both are choices, and both choices come with potential consequences.

Freedom to choose. Isn't it great!

 

[reverendg]

Careful going is needed. That guy said he doesn't like democracy, and in previous posts defamed the use of logic to frame discussions.

edit: I didn't mean you, I meant the guy you are quoting.

Hey, I thought you put me on ignore? No need to fabricate lies about me, just leave me on ignore.
I never once defamed logic. Shame on you!!
As to democracy, my dislike of it puts me in good company, like that of the founding fathers. Granted, they did see the good in it, but they also saw the pitfalls. It is for this reason that they crafted the republic to not be a democracy. I share their sentiments.
Simple little things like individual rights mattered to them, though to you they may seem trivial.
Besides, people like Lenin, and W.W. Wilson had a lot to say about democracy as well, they both were big fans. You ought to read their works some time. They both like the "s" word too, socialism that is.

Back to the helmet issue. Many have opined that the bare-headed rider is selfish. I submit that you have this quite backwards. To do so, I shall introduce my straw man, or in reality, my analog man, since it is quite representative of many riders I know. I shall call him H.D. Scutertrash. Now H.D. is a typical tramp rider, just wants to ride and be left alone. Loves the breeze in his long hair, just loves that whole "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" thing.
Of course, he does his best to follow the laws, most of the time, the big ones anyways. So he has his bike properly plated and insured, to keep the government happy and all.
One day, while pulling out of the 7-11, some guy on a spyder yells at him, tells him the law says he needs to wear a helmet now. H.D. stops, he needs to find out what happened to his freedom.
Spyder guy explains how some people have decided that everyone needs medical coverage and hospitals are required to treat everyone, and how this stuff is expensive and all, and that riding without a helmet is dangerous and it is expensive to treat head injuries. "Riding without a helmet is illegal now, because it is selfish to ask others to subsidize your risks".
H.D. fills out a note saying "If my skull is broke, let me die", and sticks it in his vest inside pocket. Spyder guy explains that that is not sufficient, that this great health care idea is a gift to all Americans, from our government. Of course, to make the gift cost effective, certain concessions must be made. One cannot be selfish.
H.D. scratches his head and thinks about it for a minute....then says "Let me get this right. Folks like you got the government to give me a gift that I didn't ask for or want, but still actually help pay for with my taxes, and in return for this "gift", you have decided that I can't have the freedom to ride my motorcycle the way that I want to ride it, because it is "possible" that doing things the way I like to do them may actually make me use the "gift" that I don't want?"
Spyder guy nods his agreement with that assessment. "It would be really selfish of you to cost everyone so much money to support you if you hurt yourself".

H.D. gets the last word...."You selfish, arrogant, self-righteous #/&*@, you give me a "gift" I did not ask for or want, but still actually pay for, and use this as a premise to take away my freedom to ride as I please, and you have the gall to call ME selfish?"

I think H.D. has it right.

 

[wyliec]

reverendg,

Like I said a while ago, it's always a pleasure to get your take on things and I would certainly not put you on my ignore list. I'm not saying I agree with all you say; but, it is certainly a pleasure to be able to read one time through and be able to understand. It could well be my ignorance; but, there seem to be posts on this and other threads that no matter how many times I read, it just doesn't sink in.

 

[flaggerphil]

I've been riding since 1968...and have never ridden without a helmet. In 1980 a Simpson helmet literally saved my life. While I realize that if you hit something hard enough no helmet is going to save you, I wear them for the rest of the time when a helmet allows you to keep living where you wouldn't if you didn't have it on. That makes it WELL worth it to me.

I'll never understand why some refuse to wear them. And I consider not wearing one to be mortally stupid. But that's me.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

H.D. gets the last word...."You selfish, arrogant, self-righteous #/&*@, you give me a "gift" I did not ask for or want, but still actually pay for, and use this as a premise to take away my freedom to ride as I please, and you have the gall to call ME selfish?"

I think H.D. has it right.

You make an interesting argument, but I think it suffers a flaw. Compassion trumps choice. In the parable of the Good Samaritan the priests who walked past the wounded man made a choice. The Samaritan practiced compassion. Which action did Christ honor? He praised compassion over free choice. Many, if not most, Republicans and Conservatives argue that this country was founded on Christian principles. They also argue personal responsibility. If H.D. is severely injured while riding without a helmet, Christian principle demands he be attended to, regardless of any stipulation on paper in his pocket. Thus, he cannot escape having placed a burden on society. The personal responsibility aspect says he should willingly own up to the consequences of his choice.

There are provisions in law and medicine, if properly executed, will excuse the medical community from performing heroic actions to save a life. If H.D. wants that to be his wish, then he needs to execute the proper documents. But even then, he cannot prevent medical practitioners from doing initial treatment. Think EMTs. What you call a 'gift' is not a gift. It is an obligation based on compassion, one of the tenets of the deepest traditions upon which this nation was founded.

 

[AbNormy]

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