fan reversal

[jwulf74]

If you want to have something to chew on
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mfuel.htm

I am going to play with their formula when I get some time this afternoon and see what the real outcome of a temperature variance is.
Unless somebody decides to do it sooner.

OK...that link made my head hurt...I'll let you tackle it. :bowdown:

 

[Jeriatric]

More input.......If you care to


http://www.bikeboy.org/open_closed_loop_efi.html

OK...that link made my head hurt...I'll let you tackle it. :bowdown:

 

[Magdave]

If you want to have something to chew on
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mfuel.htm

I am going to play with their formula when I get some time this afternoon and see what the real outcome of a temperature variance is.
Unless somebody decides to do it sooner.

:thumbup: So I am assuming the "IAT" is provided by the ambient sensor?

 

[Jeriatric]

I have played with the numbers and have calculations for the open time of an injector in tenths of a millisecond.

I simply guessed at the flow rates and other engine data that I didn't have handy so these numbers are relative and probably not what really happens in the Spyder.

I do believe they are close enough to draw conclusions.
A millisecond is .001 of a second.
All other variables remain constant.
So there is .000319 of a TENTH of a second difference between 70 and 80 degrees.
I think this bears out my assumption that it really doesn't matter if the temp sensor is off a bit.
Of course one could look at the numbers and say just the opposite.


70 16.911
71 16.879
72 16.847
73 16.816
74 16.784
75 16.753
76 16.721
77 16.690
78 16.659
79 16.628
80 16.592

You smart guys sure make my Spyder life easier. Thanks Roger :2thumbs:

 

[Magdave]

I have played with the numbers and have calculations for the open time of an injector in tenths of a millisecond.

I simply guessed at the flow rates and other engine data that I didn't have handy so these numbers are relative and probably not what really happens in the Spyder.

I do believe they are close enough to draw conclusions.
A millisecond is .001 of a second.
All other variables remain constant.
So there is .000319 of a TENTH of a second difference between 70 and 80 degrees.
I think this bears out my assumption that it really doesn't matter if the temp sensor is off a bit.
Of course one could look at the numbers and say just the opposite.


70 16.911
71 16.879
72 16.847
73 16.816
74 16.784
75 16.753
76 16.721
77 16.690
78 16.659
79 16.628
80 16.592

Thanks Roger but my question is what does a 30+deg change do to it not a couple. The data is not in on actual changes running in reverse but if run in stop and go traffic how much of a difference will there be and what effect will it have in the long term? On take off it will obviously be running leaner from a stop. What is the temp of the radiator when hot? We know these radiators run HOT and how quick and how much of a rise will occur? This is just something to think about when/if you do this mod. Can it damage the engine running lean? Will it lead to premature plug failure ? Just playing the devils advocate here:dontknow:

 

[Jeriatric]

I don't think the foot cooker will have much of an effect if any on the temp sensor when reversed. We in the summer months consistantly ride with air in the 160+ range passing by it. And in my case the highest reading seen has been (memory) 117 under the tupperware. As I refer to it.

 

[Magdave]

I am a bit baffled by your question.
The question I was trying to answer was did it make a difference that the reported temperature of the AAPT sensor was a few degrees off.
Meaning that when it was 70 degrees for real and the sensor shows 75.

The temperature at the radiator isn't used in the calculation for the fuel injection system.
At least in the calculations that I found.

I asked that earlier is the ambient sensor used for IAT calculations or is there another sensor in the TB for that? If so then obviously ambient temp is meaningless in the scheme of things.

PS
I answered my own question the AAPTS is used in fuel management. That is the ambient sensor. Pg 332 & 333 of FSM. Therefore large swings in ambient temp sensor will affect the ECM mapping

 

[Jeriatric]

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/album.php?albumid=2382

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/album.php?albumid=2382&attachmentid=54728

I asked that earlier is the ambient sensor used for IAT calculations or is there another sensor in the TB for that? If so then obviously ambient temp is meaningless in the scheme of things.

PS I answered my own question the AAPTS is used in fuel management. That is the ambient sensor. Pg 332 & 333 of FSM

 

[3 Wheel Addict]

I still see no reason why that sensor could not be moved to the other side air tunnel?

 

[jwulf74]

Yeah, I would put it right on the dash.
Then if you thought the ECM fuel mapping needed a little help you could blow on it or maybe put some ice from your Big Gulp for adjustment.

:roflblack:

I do wish it read closer to reality though...not sure if it is due to placement or due to being built/supplied by the lowest bidder...

 

[NancysToy]

I was thinking that if that sensor is used to measure the air temp going into the engine, shouldn't it be mounted near the air intake for a more accurate reading rather than at the radiator.... or is there another sensor at the air intake and the one at the radiator is only used for ambient temp reading on the display?....

The AAPTS sensor should not be moved into a direct air stream.. It also measures air pressure, and can be adversely affected by a direct air stream (or a slip stream that creates a venturi effect). It plays only a minor role in the fuel mapping, and updates very slowly at that. It is also sensitive to the harness resistance, to the wire length and connections are critical. I'd suggest you either leave it alone or be very careful about where yoyu place it and how you modify it.

 

[Magdave]

...and the density of hot air is less than cold air...

 

[Jeriatric]

...and the density of hot air is less than cold air...

Pilots will ROGER that.

 

[jwulf74]

View attachment 82806

in English? :roflblack: seriously though... looks great, but any chance there is a list of commercially available parts to make that work? I only sort of understand actual diagrams like that and could probably fumble through part of it like the 2 relays, but it turns into Greek on the speed sensor part...pps:

 

[Bob Denman]

When can we start discussing how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin? :shocked: :joke:

 

[Magdave]

When can we start discussing how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin? :shocked: :joke:

 

[Bob Denman]

It appears that I've been found, by my new Theme Song... pps:

 

[Gundam]

Ok.... finally got a chance to take my Spyder out for a long (by our standards) test ride.... hit the expressways (highways in your words) to get it nicely warmed up.... and into downtown traffic where you have stop lights for every 300 metres or so.... noted the air temperature display about 40-41 degrees C (we use metric, remember?).... switched to reverse fan mode for the entire trip around town, and noted that the air temp display remains the same.... if the air temp sensor is where the manual says it should be, then I don't think reversing the air flow forward will affect it much.... it is quite a distance from the radiator to the sensor, any hot air going forward will hit the front shock absorber first, and I don't feel any difference in temp between the left and right shocks.... frankly speaking, it is the longest single ride i have taken so far, and the really hot spot that I have felt is the glove box!.... looks like my next project will be to force some cooling air into that area.... as for this current project, I have already finished fabricating the air flow switch, next, will be the mounting bracket then testing to get the correct switching point.... will report back....

 

[Gundam]

Progress report.....

... that is, if anyone is still interested in this topic... the hype seems to be the new 14's RTs now....

Anyway, managed to mount the air flow paddle switch inside the ride side tunnel and do it the hard way, without removing the frunk... got the thing wired up as per the wiring diagram posted earlier, also installed two LEDs indicator lights to show which direction the cooling fan is rotating, red for fan blowing air forward and green for fan drawing air towards the back (normal direction).... and then the test ride....

The system works.... when the :spyder2: is accelerating past about 30 km/h, the fan switches back to the normal direction.... and when slowing down to about 28 km/h it switches to the forward direction.... but I may adjust it so that it switches over at a higher speed, about 50 or 60 km/h and also to have a larger difference between switch over points so as to prevent the fan from switching over too rapidly from one direction to the other and back again.... something I have experience during testing to find the switch over points and ended up with another episode of self induced "limp home mode" with "coolant high temp warning".... other than that, it works as what I have planned.... Will report back when further adjustment is done.... and also photos....

 

[Bob Denman]

NoNoNo... :shocked:
Please keep this information coming! :thumbup:
There are a whole of the 2013s out there, and I'm sure that all of your hard efforts will be very useful, in helping them to find answers for their own bikes too! :clap: :firstplace: