fan reversal

[Jeriatric]

:shocked::hun:
There won't be a warranty issue, because ever proposed system still requires "hacking" into the wiring... :yikes:
Face it boys; if you dance this dance... you'll be doing it alone! :shocked:
Nothing is foolproof anyway... My folks were figuring on a doctor or a lawyer, and they ended up with me!

Hacking....really?

There's a big difference between fool proof and doing ones best to think things through in order to reach the best possible end result.

The only reason we are having to dance alone Is because the person who brought us to the party is ignoring us. Any idea who that may be? Hint....it begins with a B and ends with a P.

All my best to your folks :roflblack:

 

[jcthorne]

:shocked::hun:
There won't be a warranty issue, because every proposed system still requires "hacking" into the wiring... :yikes:
Face it boys; if you dance this dance... you'll be doing it alone! :shocked:
Nothing is foolproof anyway... My folks were figuring on a doctor or a lawyer, and they ended up with me!

The proposed solution is plug n play using factory style connectors. No hacking or cutting involved on the factory harness.

 

[Magdave]

Wish I knew what the load was from the fan. These Time delay relays are rated 10A continuous. Using one of the TDR-P and one of the TDR-MF could control the fan directly with out the need of the cole hersee relay if the load is under 10A. Also, since these are build to order relays, you might inquire with the company if they could supply a 30A version for fan control.





Alternatively, here is a 30A TDR:

http://retro-solutions.net/product-info.php?HID_Time_Delay_Relay-pid602.html

They are $15 each and using a pair would no longer require the Cole Hersee relay.

It is not hard to find out with a VOM and a jumper wire. :thumbup:

 

[jwulf74]

Wish I knew what the load was from the fan. These Time delay relays are rated 10A continuous. Using one of the TDR-P and one of the TDR-MF could control the fan directly with out the need of the cole hersee relay if the load is under 10A. Also, since these are build to order relays, you might inquire with the company if they could supply a 30A version for fan control.


Alternatively, here is a 30A TDR:

http://retro-solutions.net/product-info.php?HID_Time_Delay_Relay-pid602.html

They are $15 each and using a pair would no longer require the Cole Hersee relay.

Thanks for the tip on that relay. wonder why it didn't appear in Google when I looked...:dontknow: We could eliminate the Cole Hersee if the other TDR's delay both the 87 and 87a terminals... not sure if they do or not though. When I get into testing I could try it first I suppose.

I am also thinking about adding 2-3 LED's to show Fan On, Fan Forward, and Fan Reverse. Not sure where I would mount them yet though.

Keep the ideas coming. I think we have several viable ideas all of which will be correct and just depends on end-user preference.:2thumbs:

 

[jcthorne]

Thanks for the tip on that relay. wonder why it didn't appear in Google when I looked...:dontknow: We could eliminate the Cole Hersee if the other TDR's delay both the 87 and 87a terminals... not sure if they do or not though. When I get into testing I could try it first I suppose.

I am also thinking about adding 2-3 LED's to show Fan On, Fan Forward, and Fan Reverse. Not sure where I would mount them yet though.

Keep the ideas coming. I think we have several viable ideas all of which will be correct and just depends on end-user preference.:2thumbs:

The time delay is in the switching circuit. Apply 12v to the trigger input, 10 seconds later the relay switches. Remove 12v from the trigger it switches back with no delay. Either the NO (87) or NC (87a) contact will be closed at all times except for the split second during the contact moving. They are break before make though. Unfortunatly I do not think we have gotten any simpler or cheaper as the circuit would need four of them as they are single pole and both pos and neg lines need to be switched in this reversing application. Or two of them with the Cole Hersee relay.

 

[Bob Denman]

Hacking....really?

:shocked: Granted... my choice of wording could be improved... pps:

But do you think that BRP's technicians would see it as much more than that? :dontknow:
And I'll re-state that I have absolutely NO dog in this fight...
I'm only trying to encourage independent courses of action, that are attempting to find solutions. :2thumbs:

 

[Jeriatric]

:shocked: Granted... my choice of wording could be improved... pps:

But do you think that BRP's technicians would see it as much more than that? :dontknow:
And I'll re-state that I have absolutely NO dog in this fight...
I'm only trying to encourage independent courses of action, that are attempting to find solutions. :2thumbs:

BRP Techs and BRP itself may be surprised. There are some pretty sharp cookies brainstorming this. Myself ●excluded● cause I've never been much more than an idea man.

Their efforts are undoubtedly appreciated. Look at the thread view count.

 

[Gundam]

And what does the temp read when reversed?

The same as when the fan is run normally... 5 bars on the digital display..... 4 bars if the fan is run continuously...

 

[Gundam]

Not to be an alarmist. Just thinking out loud here. Using anything that requires manual operation comes with a potential for operator error. Operator error of the cooling system could/may well cause potential warranty issues if anything was to go wrong that directly relates to that system. Again, just thinking out loud but, it seems to me whatever design anyone decides to put in place needs to be as fail safe as possible to avoid ANY potential warranty issues. Just a thought.

Thanks for your thought.... but I have weighted all the consequences.... currently, it is in manual mode and also the reverse operation is required if the right foot gets too hot otherwise it is always in normal mode.... once I have installed the air flow switch, it will be automatic.... as for warranty issues, I'm better off getting it repaired on my own with parts source from overseas... and if the Spyder could not be repaired, then it is better to scrap it.... BRP is half a world away and the local dealer only managed to sell a TOTAL of about 20 Spyders of all types since 2008.... with such numbers, I don't think they will care.....

 

[Magdave]

The same as when the fan is run normally... 5 bars on the digital display..... 4 bars if the fan is run continuously...

Not coolant temp ambient temp in the upper left corner of the display. How close was it to the outside temp. Mine always reads 2 or 3 deg higher than the actual air temperature. That is what the ECM uses for fuel mapping.

 

[jwulf74]

Not coolant temp ambient temp in the upper left corner of the display. How close was it to the outside temp. Mine always reads 2 or 3 deg higher than the actual air temperature. That is what the ECM uses for fuel mapping.

I have always wondered how that sensor affects the a/f mixture... my ambient temp always runs about 5 degrees higher than anything else providing the outside temp... and that is before trying to reverse the fan...

Help me out in understanding this... if the ECU is using that same sensor to adjust the A/F mixture, if the temp read lower, would it richen the mixture up a bit? for example, if it is 70 degrees out, but the sensor reports 75 degrees, would it run leaner than expected and if you then reverse the fan and say it reads another 10 degrees higher at 80, would it lean it out again? or do I have that backwards? :dontknow:

If it leans it out more, I would be apt to find a way to relocate it...

 

[Jeriatric]

As long as you are not getting codes or an orange screen that's attrbutal to a high heat condition. You should be OK. There have been reports of such but most that I recall were the result of heat soak after having shut the engine off but restarting it before things cooled down sufficiently.

 

[Magdave]

The sensor doesn't need to be accurate, just repeatable.

But if it is reading 120deg on a 70 degree day due to fan reversal surely it must adjust fuel mapping to the lean side possibly causing long term damage over time?

 

[Gundam]

Not coolant temp ambient temp in the upper left corner of the display. How close was it to the outside temp. Mine always reads 2 or 3 deg higher than the actual air temperature. That is what the ECM uses for fuel mapping.

I thought that temp display is the ambient temp?.... I check it when I use the reverse mode again.... if that temp sensor is used for a/f mixture mapping, shouldn't it be installed somewhere near the air intake, rather at the radiator air tunnel?...

 

[Jeriatric]

While the temp displayed isn't accurate, it is repeatable and it is what the ECM is calibrated to.
Moving it would not be a Good Thing.

Roger help me out here. Doesn't the ECM recalibrate to it during the processing period after turning the key on, but before pushing the mode button. If so(and I'm told by techs that that's the case) and if it is, how would a truer ambient temprature reading be a bad thing?

 

[Gundam]

While the temp displayed isn't accurate, it is repeatable and it is what the ECM is calibrated to.
Moving it would not be a Good Thing.

I was thinking that if that sensor is used to measure the air temp going into the engine, shouldn't it be mounted near the air intake for a more accurate reading rather than at the radiator.... or is there another sensor at the air intake and the one at the radiator is only used for ambient temp reading on the display?....

 

[Gundam]

:shocked::hun:
There won't be a warranty issue, because every proposed system still requires "hacking" into the wiring... :yikes:
Face it boys; if you dance this dance... you'll be doing it alone! :shocked:
Nothing is foolproof anyway... My folks were figuring on a doctor or a lawyer, and they ended up with me!

I have always been dancing alone all this while..... just think, for the time since I got my Spyder, I haven't met another Spyder rider on the roads, not even on our local bike forum....

 

[Bob Denman]

I wouldn't fool around with the positioning of that sensor...
It's another variable that you don't actually need to play with.
Whatever temperature it feeds to the computer; the bike will use.
Gundam will monitor his in an attempt to see if reversing the fan affects it; let's wait and see what the results are before things get any crazier in here... :thumbup:

 

[Jeriatric]

Yes there is reset of the ECM and all the variables.
A "truer" temperature isn't a bad thing but an unnecessary thing.
As long as the sensor is repeatable it really doesn't matter.
And I kind of doubt that a four or five degree difference really translates into anything very significant anyway from a practical matter.

Thanks Roger. fwiw: I see a larger discrepancy in its accuracy during cold weather riding than in the summer months. Sta rain ge

 

[Bob Denman]

And I kind of doubt that a four or five degree difference really translates into anything very significant anyway from a practical matter.

:agree: Thanks for pointing that out! :thumbup: