Electric vehicles and the Grid

[UtahPete]

Pete I THANK YOU for your last three posts ( and did ) however I don't agree with any of your conclusions. Sincerely ..... Mike :thumbup:

Mike, maybe you could tell us, point by point, where my assumed facts or conclusions are faulty?

 

[UtahPete]

Dear Pete ( correct me if I'm mis-taken on this ) .... I get the impression you feel EV's are necessary ( now & in the future ). I have nothing against EV's, however I do believe in REALITY...... And in reality one has to take into account that even today ( or the in the next FIVE or TEN years ) this country doesn't produce anywhere near the amount of electricity to accomplish what the Govt. is Demanding we all do.... This is FACT not fiction, just go back to last year when Texas .... FROZE .... Texas went Big time into having a lot of things use ONLY Electricity like Homes & factories etc.. and that Idea ... FAILED ..... someday All Electric will be possible but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. .... Here's a question the climate activists ( and or Scientists ) won't answer .... How clean would the air be if the U.S. was totally " pollution free ". I've heard numbers like 1 to 2 % , for the entire planet. The three biggest nations that create pollution are China, India, & Russia and they arn't doing much if anything to fix this situation. I'm all for saving the planet - but it can't be done by one Nation and it's population ALONE. Think of it this way, if you decide to stop eating, so there will be more food for the rest of the people who are starving - how many people will be saved when you die of starvation .... ???? .... PS nothing I've said is an attack on you or anyone else, this is my opinion about energy ..... nothing more , nothing less ......Mike :thumbup:

Mike, as to the geopolitical issues you mentioned.

First, I don't think it serves the discussion about alternative power sources to say that the current administration is to blame for the current price increases at the pump. As another SpyderLover has explained eloquently, the US is just one player in a global economy. The White House doesn't have ANY control over prices at the pump because ours is still a free-market economy subject to market supply and demand, and such things as investors' evaluation of risk.

What is happening in Ukraine is affecting the supply, and therefore the price, of all important commodities, not just oil. Up until 3 years ago, the global supply chain for everything consumers depend on, was working pretty well. It was a finely tuned, efficient and effective system that, independent of governments, was producing desired products at low prices because it was a global system. That had been in the makings since Nixon opened up China to free trade and accelerated by the fall of the Iron curtain.

Covid-19 changed all that. And Russia's invasion of Ukraine has pretty much destroyed the global supply chain once and for all. It will take decades to return to the relative global prosperity we have all enjoyed for so long. Not just prosperity, but food and housing security. We are in deep doo-doo and we need to figure out how to survive not only a disruption of supply but also a permanent climate change and global warming.

Pointing fingers has never solved mankind's problems and never will. Neither will clinging to old ways of doing things.

 

[2dogs]

Keep your eye on our military. How far and fast do you think a battery powered fighter jet will go, or how far a battery powered tank will have to travel to get to the next charging station? Actually you don't have to worry about that because none of us on this form will be alive to ever see that happen. IF anyone of us were to live long enough to fly on a battery powered jumbo jet,,,,,,,well you get the idea. Think about the navy's latest sub that only has to resurface to take on food for its crew. It's only partially battery powered. What do you think charges those batteries and what powered all the equipment to manufacture one of those subs? Fossil fuels will be the go-to source for power for many many decades to come. JMHO

 

[UtahPete]

Keep your eye on our military. How far and fast do you think a battery powered fighter jet will go, or how far a battery powered tank will have to travel to get to the next charging station? Actually you don't have to worry about that because none of us on this form will be alive to ever see that happen. IF anyone of us were to live long enough to fly on a battery powered jumbo jet,,,,,,,well you get the idea.

Think about the navy's latest sub that only has to resurface to take on food for its crew. It's only partially battery powered. What do you think charges those batteries and what powered all the equipment to manufacture one of those subs?

Fossil fuels will be the go-to source for power for many many decades to come. JMHO

For the military and commercial jet applications you mentioned, I agree fossil fuels will be needed into the foreseeable future.

The US Navy subs are powered by nuclear reactors driving conventional steam-driven engine rooms. Not batteries.

The shipyards are powered by grid electricity, not diesel generators.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Mike, maybe you could tell us, point by point, where my assumed facts or conclusions are faulty?

" Faulty " !!!! ... Pete I'm a TWO finger typist ..... So I don't have a few years I want to try and fill your re-quest ... I believe in Free Speech .... even the stuff I don't agree with .... Let's just leave it at " your ideology and mine are like night and day " ...Thank you for your service, and I hope and ray: you can survive today's ( and tomorrow's ) inflation ....... Love .... Mike :thumbup:

 

[UtahPete]

" Faulty " !!!! ... Pete I'm a TWO finger typist ..... So I don't have a few years I want to try and fill your re-quest ... I believe in Free Speech .... even the stuff I don't agree with .... Let's just leave it at " your ideology and mine are like night and day " ...Thank you for your service, and I hoper and ray: you can survive today's ( and tomorrow's ) inflation ....... Love .... Mike :thumbup:

Sadly, I think you represent the majority view (ideology) on this forum and probably in the country. Fortunately I won't be alive to experience the full consequences of that.

BTW, I type with one finger on my tablet.:thumbup:

 

[UtahPete]

I hope and ray: you can survive today's ( and tomorrow's ) inflation ....... Love .... Mike :thumbup:

Mike, I've survived many financial setbacks and challenges in my life, and had to adapt to new realities. This is just another. Fortunately, I anticipated a lot of the challenges I would be facing (in our personal circumstances and the changing world order) and already changed our lifestyle to better meet those challenges .

With respect to vehicles, we went from two cars to one very fuel-efficient diesel truck that meets all our current needs quite well, while reducing our overall cost of ownership and operation (fuel, maintenance, repairs, insurance, etc). I don't think today's price shock is going to last all that long - maybe a year or two. When it does come down though I think it will be more in line with what europeans have been paying for a long time.

A much greater concern than energy costs for us in the West is the drought. There's not much we can do about the way our neighbors waste water as if it's an unlimited resource and I'm afraid we are in for some very difficult times on that score.

With respect to inflation generally, most of our current income is from the government and adjusts each year due to inflation, so we're going to be okay.

 

[2dogs]

That's a pretty common response when folks are clinging to a faith-based ideology rather than dealing with scientific reality.

I enjoy and respect both your and BK's positions and insights. However, I also agree and disagree with each of you both to some degree or another. Learning more here than on many other posts. Thanks for the calm respective exchange.

 

[UtahPete]

I enjoy and respect both your and BK's positions and insights. However, I also agree and disagree with each of you both to some degree or another. Learning more here than on many other posts. Thanks for the calm respective exchange.

I appreciate your candid and respectful feedback. I am still trying to know, understand and appreciate where "conservatives" are coming from on this and other societal issues.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

The Achilles heel in all of this shift to EVs is with long-haul trucks, motorhomes and others that go beyond the range of current battery technology. Those applications require fast-charging stations located along their route, which of course is the biggest infrastructure challenge.

As far as trucks I believe Tesla would disagree with you. An article I read some time back stated that something like 80 to 90% of truck miles are run in distances within battery range, which is why Tesla is going after that market. IIRC, Tesla is not pursuing the cross country trucking market.

 

[UtahPete]

As far as trucks I believe Tesla would disagree with you. An article I read some time back stated that something like 80 to 90% of truck miles are run in distances within battery range, which is why Tesla is going after that market. IIRC, Tesla is not pursuing the cross country trucking market.

I agree with Tesla. That's why I said 'long-haul trucks' that travel beyond the battery's range.

Incidentally, I think the same is true of motorcycle miles (most trips are within battery range), which is why H-D and others are leaning into EV technology.

Interestingly, Caterpillar and other heavy equipment and farming equipment manufacturers are also looking into the feasibility of using non-ICE (i.e. battery, fuel cell, etc) propulsion systems.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Hi, Mike. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

You mention the failures in Texas with its power grid being overwhelmed by a massive state-wide freeze. It was awhile back, so I don't remember the details, but my impression is that was unique to Texas, with its fragmented, unregulated power supply system. Unlike other states, which typically have one or two highly regulated state-wide power companies, Texas allows entrepreneurial power companies to proliferate and compete against each other for customers' business. That worked to consumers' advantage for a long time, producing some of the lowest costs for electricity in the country.

But, when that storm hit, the system broke down and couldn't handle the massive supply/demand imbalance, leaving many of these smaller power companies unable to buy enough power at a low enough price to meet their customers' needs or expectations of cheap electricity. So, I think what happened then in Texas is more of a lesson in the dangers of lack of regulation than an indication of a weakness in the national power grid.

The main reason for the failure in Texas during the freeze was faulty risk assessment. Turbines run in the northern states quite nicely during the winter, but they are built to withstand the cold. In Texas the owners and operators of the windmill farm chose to ignore the reality and consequences of something like a 2% probability of freezing weather and did not freeze proof the turbines. It was a gamble based on typical capitalistic risk/investment assessment, and they lost.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I agree with Tesla. That's why I said 'long-haul trucks'

Fair point. I just can't tell by looking at one if it is a long haul or short haul truck!

 

[UtahPete]

The main reason for the failure in Texas during the freeze was faulty risk assessment. Turbines run in the northern states quite nicely during the winter, but they are built to withstand the cold. In Texas the owners and operators of the windmill farm chose to ignore the reality and consequences of something like a 2% probability of freezing weather and did not freeze proof the turbines. It was a gamble based on typical capitalistic risk/investment assessment, and they lost.

True. The underlying cause being the for-profit free-market approach Texas take to public utilities.

 

[Cobwebs]

Mike, as to the geopolitical issues you mentioned.

First, I don't think it serves the discussion about alternative power sources to say that the current administration is to blame for the current price increases at the pump. As another SpyderLover has explained eloquently, the US is just one player in a global economy. The White House doesn't have ANY control over prices at the pump because ours is still a free-market economy subject to market supply and demand, and such things as investors' evaluation of risk.

What is happening in Ukraine is affecting the supply, and therefore the price, of all important commodities, not just oil. Up until 3 years ago, the global supply chain for everything consumers depend on, was working pretty well. It was a finely tuned, efficient and effective system that, independent of governments, was producing desired products at low prices because it was a global system. That had been in the makings since Nixon opened up China to free trade and accelerated by the fall of the Iron curtain.

Covid-19 changed all that. And Russia's invasion of Ukraine has pretty much destroyed the global supply chain once and for all. It will take decades to return to the relative global prosperity we have all enjoyed for so long. Not just prosperity, but food and housing security. We are in deep doo-doo and we need to figure out how to survive not only a disruption of supply but also a permanent climate change and global warming.

Pointing fingers has never solved mankind's problems and never will. Neither will clinging to old ways of doing things.

Wow!!!! Sounds like a msm headline post.
Far as I know USA has been the reserve currency and agreements to buy and sell oil was to be in US $. That privelege has been abused and the world is now turning it's back on that deal.
No markets are freely traded any more and the whole ponzy scheme is unravelling. All the gyrations we are seeing are the end of an empire with the globalists hanging on to power by a thread.
You can't print your way out of debt yet that is the plan.
Electric cars will be regulated, taxed, lied about, the same as everything else.
Alternative media is our only hope at the moment for any truth and discussion without censorship.
Sorry to approach your bubble with a pin UtahPete but that is how I see it.

 

[UtahPete]

I'm sure your post will get more likes and thanks than mine. It does seem to be the prevailing view of the alternate reality universe.

 

[Pirate]

I appreciate your candid and respectful feedback. I am still trying to know, understand and appreciate where "conservatives" are coming from on this and other societal issues.

I think "conservatives" are not sheep going with the herd and would like the freedom of being able to choose ICE or EV vehicles rather than being forced to choose by way of regulations. In regards to other societal issues, it boggles my mind how a navy vet (retired or otherwise) who took an oath to defend the Constitution could vote for a party hell bent on dismantling one of our Constitutional rights, namely the 2nd Amendment.

 

[2dogs]

I appreciate your candid and respectful feedback. I am still trying to know, understand and appreciate where "conservatives" are coming from on this and other societal issues.

Well,, we'll have to meet halfway, say Reno or Salt Lake City for a week or so to hash that one out. And you mentioned the power grids and ownerships in regards to the Texas freeze issue. Here in Mexifornia, we have a couple of large power suppliers. One, possibly being the largest, is PG&E. Pacific Gas and Electric. Their antiquated infrastructure is the cause of two known wildland fires that destroyed two cities and killed nearly a hundred people. They placed profits above safety to fund their executives and shareholders. Decaying gas lines that exploded and unattended powerlines throughout their service area. At least 3 confirmed PG&E related fires have caused deaths. PG&E has been convicted on each one of those fires and has been fined heavily as a result. Victims have been waiting for years for reparations while high paid lawyers haggle with the system and dispersion of funds. Sad, so very sad to say the least.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I have been sitting on the sidelines (mostly) and reading this thread with interest. There have been posts that I think the moderators have been very liberal in allowing. Thank you for that. This is an important current issue effecting ALL of us. Having said that, I want to interject my 2 cents worth of wisdom. I DO expect that I will get spanked and this post will get deleted or severely altered. But anyway, here goes.....

I'm sorry canamjhb, but you knew that was gonna happen when you posted it .... so why didja hafta wait 'til I was the only Moderator on the boards before putting that up! :banghead: Thanks heaps! :cus: ......

Anyhow, as I'm sure you've all realised, the Moderators/Admin Team has been watching this thread very closely - simply because the subject & the strong feelings around it meant it was always going to produce some strong & diametrically opposed opinions, so it was always very likely to head south &/or start a political stoush!! We've tried to let the discussion proceed without too much intervention, but the post just hidden has taken it juuust a tad too far (yeah, just a tad... right! ) . And given that I'm the only one on the boards right now, so the Mod/Admin Team can't discuss a suitable way to let the thread proceed just yet, I'm going to pull the plug on it until we can... In the meantime, I'm sorry everyone, but please watch this space..... altho I don't think there'll be any public spanking spectacles.... :dontknow:

 

[ARtraveler]

I'm sorry canamjhb, but you knew that was gonna happen when you posted it .... so why didja hafta wait 'til I was the only Moderator on the boards before putting that up! :banghead: Thanks heaps! :cus: ......

Anyhow, as I'm sure you've all realised, the Moderators/Admin Team has been watching this thread very closely - simply because the subject & the strong feelings around it meant it was always going to produce some strong & diametrically opposed opinions, so it was always very likely to head south &/or start a political stoush!! We've tried to let the discussion proceed without too much intervention, but the post just hidden has taken it juuust a tad too far (yeah, just a tad... right! ) . And given that I'm the only one on the boards right now, so the Mod/Admin Team can't discuss a suitable way to let the thread proceed just yet, I'm going to pull the plug on it until we can... In the meantime, I'm sorry everyone, but please watch this space..... altho I don't think there'll be any public spanking spectacles.... :dontknow:

I am right on with you Peter. The delete was right on, and Canam...was right on the money about it being political and dooming the post.

I will say, that up to that point, there were some close calls, but most respected the others viewpoints without being political or nasty about it to others.