BUDS Alternative - asking for your help to get a new tool????

[Eckhard]

Hi All:

In the BMW motorcycle world there is a device called a GS911, $399 on Amazon, which has a set of diagnostic & service functions to help maintain your bike. I contacted the manufacturer to see if they had any plans to do something for Spyders and they seemed cool to the idea. I would like to ask for your help to get us a new tool to help us maintain our Spyders.

The functions I would like to see are:
a. Brake bleeding Assistance
b. Steering centering for DIY alignment types
c. Brake pressure readout.
d. Various Sensor Diagnostics.

Let's all write him an email asking for this new product. These are the contact coordinates of the person I was in touch with.

Ruan Britz

Technical Product Support Specialist

Email: [email protected]

Tel: +27 21 850 0650

Website: http://www.hexdiagnostics.co.za

Let's show him that there is a market for this new device.

 

[shardt]

Only Buds/Buds2 works. You can get the kit from here: https://www.powersports-diag.com/

 

[Eckhard]

I'm hoping to buy something nearer to a $400 price range.

 

[shardt]

You can reduce the cost for getting a license for the spyder/ryker models only and go yearly. The initial cost is mostly for the interface. Renewal is like 105 bucks. If you plan on doing your own work you will need it as it is only way to do calibrations and updates. These things have like 5 computers in them.

 

[SNOOPY]

You can reduce the cost for getting a license for the spyder/ryker models only and go yearly. The initial cost is mostly for the interface. Renewal is like 105 bucks. If you plan on doing your own work you will need it as it is only way to do calibrations and updates. These things have like 5 computers in them.

If you are only using this BUDS on your own bike, do you need to buy a yearly license or is there a work around?


.

 

[shardt]

To be legal yeah you have to purchase a license. There may be hacks but I would not trust anything like that. They may work but what else are these hacks doing to your computer. Besides the yearly cost is not very much if you plan to do your own maintenance.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

If you are only using this BUDS on your own bike, do you need to buy a yearly license or is there a work around?

No work around that I know of. I think the end date for the license is coded into the registration or activation key so the program will go into demo mode when the license expires.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

BUDS/BUDS II is what is used to install program updates for the ECM and other modules in the Spyder. I really doubt BRP would release those updates to a 3rd party diagnostic tool company. Plus it would be one helluva job to reverse engineer the BUDS/BUDS II software and not get tangled up in lawsuits over patent and copyright infringements. The market simply wouldn't be big enough for someone like Hex Diagnostics to get a positive payback, IMO.

I also see that Hex D sells a separate tool for each model of BMW. Change motorcycles, change the tool. With BUDS the cost to update BUDS, if needed, when you get a new Spyder model, is usually zilch. Buy a Sea Doo or Ski Doo and upgrade your license. You already have the tool itself.

Have you looked into BUDS? What it does is a list much, much, longer than your wish list above.

 

[SNOOPY]

Wasn’t looking to hack into it. My point being I haven’t needed it for 9 years now, but if I want to put the $500 into it in case I needed it in the future…it’s not worth having to pay $100 a year just to keep it “working”.

If it will still works but won’t do future updates I’m good with that, but it sounds like after a “specified” date it will no longer function.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Wasn’t looking to hack into it. My point being I haven’t needed it for 9 years now, but if I want to put the $500 into it in case I needed it in the future…it’s not worth having to pay $100 a year just to keep it “working”.

If it will still works but won’t do future updates I’m good with that, but it sounds like after a “specified” date it will no longer function.

I think you could let it be dormant for some time and then buy a 1 year license when you need to use it.

 

[Tsmodie]

I use an Atec, and it works great on the Spyders. It's more expensive, but we use it on all motorcycles and 4 wheelers, boats, Sea Doos, etc. We had to buy the adapters for different makes, but the BRP adapters work on Ski Doo, Sea Doo, and several boats. To say that nothing else works except BUDs is completely wrong. Now this is expensive for just Spyder owners, but for general use it was cheaper, since we use it on all motorsports, Tim.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I use an Atec, and it works great on the Spyders. It's more expensive, but.....

Interesting, and good to know that BRP hasn't locked down the system completely.

 

[WhiteCat]

I use an Atec, and it works great on the Spyders.

Tim, that sounds interesting to me.
I tried to find out more about that, but have had no success so far.
Can you give me any further information about this device (maybe a link to the manufacturer)?

Thanks
Michael

 

[Tsmodie]

I am sorry, it's not an Atec, it's TEXA, I've had it for a couple of years, we use it for snowmobiles, side x sides, motorcycles, an boats, Tim

 

[BertRemington]

Request for CANBUS information.

Tim -- per the service manual, my 2014 Spyder uses the KWP2000 (Keyword Protocol 2000) at the 500kbps data rate.

Can you confirm this? CAN Standard Frame (11-bit identifier) or CAN Extended Frame (29-bit identifier)? Would you know the identifier(s) for the MSL (Multi-Function Switch Left) messages? Specifically those containing the Turn Left, Turn Right and Cancel Turn commands?

I'm about to use a "sniffer" but I'm lazy and this information would help me get started faster. Thanks.

 

[BertRemington]

I'm pretty sure I found the MSL msgs I was looking for

I confirmed my 2014 uses the KWP2000 CANBUS framework (as compared to the OBD CANBUS framework) at 500Kbps using the CAN 2.0A Base Frame Format (11-bit identifiers). The CAN 2.0B Extended Frame Format (29-bit message identifiers) was pre-released in 2012 so my Spyder didn't make the cut although later Spyders (eg starting in 2017-2018?) probably did as Bosch both "controls" the standard and builds our ECM and TCM.

The "sniffer" I used is https://www.amazon.com/Studio-Analyz.../dp/B0B1L4MTCM and the USB-CAN(V8.00) software at GitHub. Figuring out the configuration parameters is not for the faint-hearted or impatient and the collected output reflects a number of software errors but hey I bought it cheap Used! Fortunately the software provides a self-test loopback feature otherwise I never could have made it work.

I'm pretty sure the MSL messages I want are 590 and 591 for LT, RT, CT and PTT (I'm not interested in PTT but some folks seem to be).

1509 15:29:55:878 590 03
180 15:29:30:756 590 04 80 39 33 2e 33
115 15:29:29:487 590 83
296 15:29:32:990 590 84 00 39 33 2e 33
1508 15:29:55:863 591 14 00
3973 15:30:42:332 591 89 01
114 15:29:29:472 591 94 00

For today's collection I had to sort through 1000s of messages. For tomorrow's collection I will use filters to confirm those messages are the ones I want.

// Multi-Function Switch (Left) functions via CANBUS
// Reverse: Free-Reverse
// PTT: Free-Push-to-Talk
// Shift: Free-UpShift-DownShift
// Windshield: Free-UpWindShield-DownWindShield
// RECC: Free-Up-Down-Left-Right
// Mode: Free-Mode
// Set: Free-Set
// Turn: Free-Left-Right-Cancel
// Multi-Function Switch (Right) functions via MSL via CANBUS
// Cruise: Off-On-Set-Resume

Right now it's a contest whether I have more pages of documentation or C++ code. Most of the parts have arrived. Great fun!

 

[BertRemington]

Plan A ain't gonna work but I've got a Plan B

Well I'm closer to confirming the specific CANBUS messages of interest (Turn: Left-Right-Cancel) but further from the solution I wanted (injection of Cancel message).

There's kinda two basic strategies for determining when to send messages: as needed or periodic. BRP chose periodic which has several advantages the primary disadvantage being CANBUS loading. But with a 500Kbps speed supporting only 11 modules most of which don't have much to say there's not much bus loading.

I believe the MSL is transmitting its messages every 300-400ms. Message 340h seems to contain Byte 3 as Turn (01, 02, 04) and Byte 2 as PTT (40). Notice there's lots of bits available for other information just like there's lots more buttons on the MSL. I still haven't be able to get my sniffer's message filtering to work so didn't want to dig deeper (the total message rate is 16/sec so there's a lot of chaff surrounding the wheat) until I do.

One of the advantages of periodic is debounce. The push state of the button(s) (OFF=0 ON=1) is transmitted in every 340h message for as long as you press them. The Cluster, etc probably waits for several messages (about 1 second) before deciding the button push wasn't a transient or unintended. So if I inject a pseudo Cancel Turn button push (Byte 3 = 04) and 200ms later the MSL injects the actual state of the button (Byte 3 = 00) the Cluster is probably going to ignore my "button push."

Bummer. But I'm thinking instead of sharing the Turn (and Hazard) lighting functions with the Cluster, just totally take them over. I'm almost there but that's another thread.

Returning to the general theme of this thread, the CANBUS messages from a data perspective are easy to extract and with patience many can be decoded. For instance Spyder Monkey https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...cant-progress-on-talking-to-CAN-Bus-on-Spyder decoded several messages before he had to give his sniffer back. I'm interested in Message 560d for speed-dependent brake flasher operation. And now that I've removed the radio and speakers (I needed the space and am re-purposing the wiring) what can I do with a PTT button? Hmm...

But DIY transmitting messages into the CANBUS? You're going to need Bosch's engineering documentation. And they ain't sharing with us commoners.

Anyway that's all for me on this thread unless you have questions.

 

[CloverHillCrawler]

Well I'm closer to confirming the specific CANBUS messages of interest (Turn: Left-Right-Cancel) but further from the solution I wanted (injection of Cancel message).

There's kinda two basic strategies for determining when to send messages: as needed or periodic. BRP chose periodic which has several advantages the primary disadvantage being CANBUS loading. But with a 500Kbps speed supporting only 11 modules most of which don't have much to say there's not much bus loading.
View attachment 199301
I believe the MSL is transmitting its messages every 300-400ms. Message 340h seems to contain Byte 3 as Turn (01, 02, 04) and Byte 2 as PTT (40). Notice there's lots of bits available for other information just like there's lots more buttons on the MSL. I still haven't be able to get my sniffer's message filtering to work so didn't want to dig deeper (the total message rate is 16/sec so there's a lot of chaff surrounding the wheat) until I do.

One of the advantages of periodic is debounce. The push state of the button(s) (OFF=0 ON=1) is transmitted in every 340h message for as long as you press them. The Cluster, etc probably waits for several messages (about 1 second) before deciding the button push wasn't a transient or unintended. So if I inject a pseudo Cancel Turn button push (Byte 3 = 04) and 200ms later the MSL injects the actual state of the button (Byte 3 = 00) the Cluster is probably going to ignore my "button push."

Bummer. But I'm thinking instead of sharing the Turn (and Hazard) lighting functions with the Cluster, just totally take them over. I'm almost there but that's another thread.

Returning to the general theme of this thread, the CANBUS messages from a data perspective are easy to extract and with patience many can be decoded. For instance Spyder Monkey https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...cant-progress-on-talking-to-CAN-Bus-on-Spyder decoded several messages before he had to give his sniffer back. I'm interested in Message 560d for speed-dependent brake flasher operation. And now that I've removed the radio and speakers (I needed the space and am re-purposing the wiring) what can I do with a PTT button? Hmm...

But DIY transmitting messages into the CANBUS? You're going to need Bosch's engineering documentation. And they ain't sharing with us commoners.

Anyway that's all for me on this thread unless you have questions.

 

[BertRemington]

Current status: 16 pages of C++ code, 24 pages of wiring documentation and on my third iteration of ACS plumbing (parts arrive next week). Featuritis seems to have reached its end. Progress slowed as my wiring workshop is an hour drive away and its kinda cold for my old bones.

PS Speed is a scalar; Velocity is a vector - ya don't use them together.

 

[rideaway]

Hi All:

In the BMW motorcycle world there is a device called a GS911, $399 on Amazon, which has a set of diagnostic & service functions to help maintain your bike. I contacted the manufacturer to see if they had any plans to do something for Spyders and they seemed cool to the idea. I would like to ask for your help to get us a new tool to help us maintain our Spyders.

.

I have a GS911 and it is great and the guys that produced are great but they really don't seem intersted in expanding past BMW, I have tried to convince them with no luck. But then again if everyone tried it might help.