Best ECU flash results ever for me

[Bob Denman]

I learned a long time ago, that when you're tinkering around with the output of an engine: you have better ask some good questions along the way. nojoke
"Pick it apart"? Exactly what did I ask, that makes you think that? :dontknow:

I have some very good reasons for asking questions:
I once took a 65 horsepower 432cc piston-port snowmobile engine, and built it into a 107 horsepower 513cc powerhouse.
It was :
bored
Stroked
Piped
Ported
The 38 Mikunis were bored out to 39.5 mm.
To deal with the huge power increase: it required clutching and gearing changes that went way beyond what might be expected.
The Operations Changes:
Engine rpm was only increased from 7,800 rpm, to 8,100... :thumbup:
It had to drink at least 91 octane fuel: it didn't like 87 at all.
I had to let the engine warm up completely; before trying to take off on the sled...

Basically; the required changes were not psrticularly onerous, and I ran that sled for 15 years!
But I had to ask a lot of questions about that build, and I had to learn even more to tune it so that it would run the way that I had hoped.

 

[Spyd_Piper]

I've got Monster Fuel's tuning sheet in front of me, and I've got a couple of questions:
1.Torque Limiting & Detuning removed... does this refer to the changes that Nanny makes, or is it something else?
2. Main Rev Limit... does this mean that we can specify exactly where we want it to be, or are there guidelines to be followed?
3. Ignition Timing for a specified fuel octane... If I have it set for 91, and I get in a spot where only 87 is available: what happens?

Thanks! :thumbup:

I can answer these. I am involved in this.
1 - yes. Torque limiter is the so called "nanny". It can be reduced or removed. Normally only removed on off-road models. On-road still benefits from traction control.
2 - yes. The only guidelines are that you will be warned, if the rpm request is too high for the engine. And questioned on what parts you will be using. Between 8100-8800 is perfectly safe. 9200 is about max. (without addressing piston, rings and valve springs)
3 - Nothing. Its stock mapping at all lower throttle and load. 91 is recommended on the stock machine. But the ecu system has knock sensors which detect spark knock or detonation and pull timing, switch timing tables and close throttle. (steps in that order) So using less than ideal fuel is doable. Besides, damage on any engine based upon detonation will only ever occur at heavy loads / wide open throttle. If someone was to disregard there owners manual, disregard a reprogramming recommendation and run crap fuel and drive the hell out of their bike continuously.... they should not own one. If they follow the same logic as they do on a stock machine, there is no difference. But there is still the option to leave stock timing with moderate gains from everything else. Or receive best power. Or even setup for race fuel etc.

 

[Spyd_Piper]

To be honest Bob I can't see me ever getting to 8800rpm as I rarely rev beyond 7K now, but I'd want the limiter in place to make sure.

I too had a look at the options page and had similar questions to you. This is clearly early days and expect the tuner to have standard packages available eventually. A kind of mild, medium, hot range so those of us with little know how can just select a desired level.

Chatting with them. You give specific current modifications, what you will do in future and what fuel octane you want to run. And its custom set for your setup.
Mild medium or hot? Not really understanding. Its common for Engine to be "so called" modified in stages. Like exhaust and filter is stage 1. Add intake system or pistons for stage 2. Cams for stage3. etc. But Monster Fi does not sell hard parts. And doesn't really believe in preset stuff. As everybody will always want or have something different. What they do is give a performance mode. They way it should be. Then will tailor it more to each user.

 

[Spyd_Piper]

I don't understand.
You say you need to modify the exhaust to reflash the ECU.
How much of the performance enhancement is from the reflash, and how much is from the exhaust modifications ?

Sounds a lot like diet pills. If you take diet pills and eat sensibly, you lose weight, but you also lose weight if you just eat sensibly.

Speaking of eating sensibly, I think I'm off to Big W Roadside BBQ for some brisket. Can I get anybody something ?

I believe you mistook that. Ecu flash can be stock or modified exhaust.

Exhaust will give you squat. You try to make more power out of the stock engine, and it will close throttle and allow the same power / torque to the rear wheel. System is a torque limiting setup. Any exhaust is just added noise. Once you allow more torque. (modify whats allowed) You first will gain what the stock engine has. And then, you will be able to make more power with hard parts / airflow modifications. .

 

[Bob Denman]

The web page is not updated and very general to a range of products.
The test bike is a 2015 RT with 23,000 miles on it. When I sport ride NOW I'm getting all the fun I need from 4,800 through 6,800. If your top shifting is around 7k now, You'll be matching that output power around 6k but only if you open the throttle above 60%. I can get my RT all the way up to interstate speeds just on the stock mapping. Nothing is lost and something for everyone.
Bob, each question you asked I answered in the two different forum threads. Monster Fuel injection has built a wonderful flash and it meets the needs for all level of riding styles. You can certainly ask for custom options to tailor to you special riding styles. For me it is perfect, I can go slow and easy, set it up for a little more fun or get really crazy and blow off my friend on his Harley V-rod. .

Now here's the info that I've been waiting for: THANKS!! :clap::thumbup:

I can answer these. I am involved in this.
1 - yes. Torque limiter is the so called "nanny". It can be reduced or removed. Normally only removed on off-road models. On-road still benefits from traction control.
2 - yes. The only guidelines are that you will be warned, if the rpm request is too high for the engine. And questioned on what parts you will be using. Between 8100-8800 is perfectly safe. 9200 is about max. (without addressing piston, rings and valve springs)
3 - Nothing. Its stock mapping at all lower throttle and load. 91 is recommended on the stock machine. But the ecu system has knock sensors which detect spark knock or detonation and pull timing, switch timing tables and close throttle. (steps in that order) So using less than ideal fuel is doable. Besides, damage on any engine based upon detonation will only ever occur at heavy loads / wide open throttle. If someone was to disregard there owners manual, disregard a reprogramming recommendation and run crap fuel and drive the hell out of their bike continuously.... they should not own one. If they follow the same logic as they do on a stock machine, there is no difference. But there is still the option to leave stock timing with moderate gains from everything else. Or receive best power. Or even setup for race fuel etc.

I appreciate your VERY useful input to this discussion, and I'm REALLY starting to get interested in this product! :yes:

 

[trikermutha]

opcorn:

 

[Bam Bam and Pebbles]

Oh! Since I'm on an RT: racing seems out of the question. (Unless they have a class for "Short Buses! :roflblack

Speak for yourself Bob. :roflblack:

 

[blacklightning]

Speak for yourself Bob. :roflblack:

I had a feeling that you would be the one to say that.:clap:
I am not one to do a lot of mods on my bike, but I am really interested in seeing how this will shake out in the future. I really love my F3T, but as with everything that I have ever owned (except my ZX14), more power would be a welcome upgrade. Who knows, if I get more power, I might actually have a desire to upgrade my sway bar and other suspension items.

 

[Bob Denman]

If you think like this guy:

Life will always have more flavor! :clap:

(Although every once in a while: it passes by quicker! :shocked

 

[five-0]

If the ecu has a different program will the dealer be able to see that for warranty reasons?

 

[Firefly]

If the ecu has a different program will the dealer be able to see that for warranty reasons?

Good question.. and it will have varying answers I'm sure.

If something engine-wise was to go kaput and they found the custom mapping, they might raise a stink, but they cannot just 'void your warranty' due to the mapping. There has to be a connection between the mapping and the failure. For example a DPS failure might be hard to blame on the mapping change.

One thing that should be mentioned is that under certain circumstances your dealer might plug in to BUDS and reflash the whole thing back to stock or with new updates from BRP. Then you would lose the extra ummph. I'm curious if they have any discount for redoing the remapping under those circumstances?

 

[Bob Denman]

:shocked: Will it cause a problem with the warranty, if something happens to the engine?
You better believe it! nojoke
What are the chances of something happening?

Personally: I think that a change to the electronics might be safer than a hardware change.

 

[MikeP]

What is the projected cost of this reflash and when will it be available??

 

[Bob Denman]

If you take a look at their website: I believe that it shows a price of $350 in US, and $400 in Canadian dollars.

 

[Spyd_Piper]

If the ecu has a different program will the dealer be able to see that for warranty reasons?

No, there is no way for a dealer to know any changes within the ecu mapping. BUDS program is not a mapping program at all. It is only for vehicle setup, diagnostics and factory flash loading. Does nothing else. Cannot see or adjust maps in any manor.

However, there is a diagnostic history stored in ecu. It will store rpm use. This will show if the engine has ran over the stock rev limiter.

Simple answer is:
Under warranty (and worried at all) - leave the rev limiter stock.
Out of warranty - set rev limiter where wanted.


Any flash has no charge for future changes (like rev limit change after warranty period or fuel type change / added performance stuff etc down the road) Or to put back to stock at any time or to re-install if its rewritten by dealer for update. Every user and file is stored in a database. User pays shipping. Thats it.

 

[Bob Denman]

Simple answer is:
Under warranty (and worried at all) - leave the rev limiter stock.
Out of warranty - set rev limiter where wanted.

Any flash has no charge for future changes (like rev limit change after warranty period or fuel type change / added performance stuff etc down the road) Or to put back to stock at any time or to re-install if its rewritten by dealer for update. Every user and file is stored in a database. User pays shipping. Thats it.

:clap: Thanks for the quick reply! :2thumbs:
Which begs another question: (Sorry! pps
1.If the rev limiter is left stock: how much of an increase will be felt over the stock ECU's programming?
2. Would a modest increase in the rev limiter (let's say 8,400 rpm) Make more of a difference?
3. if so: how much?

Okay: THREE questions!

 

[TRLBLZR1]

Would like to know how this remapping effects the 2017 F3-S models like my D-500 (se). They're already tuned a little "hotter" and more aggressively setup (nanny etc.) than prior years. ~ Not to mention the S models also have more power stock. On that note: I've always wondered if the extra HP (on the S model) is exclusively due to ECM programming. Wouldn't surprise me.....

Years back I had friends in the radar detector business. (technicians) Their high end $300+ models had extra features that their $150 model didn't. To get those features, all you needed was a Philips screw driver. Peel off the black tape from the display and you had all the extra indicators! The electronics (antenna and everything) inside were identical!

 

[Firefly]

Would like to know how this remapping effects the 2017 F3-S models like my D-500 (se). They're already tuned a little "hotter" and more aggressively setup (nanny etc.) than prior years. ~ Not to mention the S models also have more power stock. On that note: I've always wondered if the extra HP (on the S model) is exclusively due to ECM programming. Wouldn't surprise me.....

Years back I had friends in the radar detector business. (technicians) Their high end $300+ models had extra features that their $150 model didn't. To get those features, all you needed was a Philips screw driver. Peel off the black tape from the display and you had all the extra indicators! The electronics (antenna and everything) inside were identical!

It's common for manufacturers to build units with all the features and then only unlock them for the higher models. Computer chips used to do this as well. The new Tesla comes with the 'extra' batteries for longer range, but they are not unlocked for use on the base model. So you get like 200 mile range and if you want the 275 or whatever it is then you pay them $7,000 and they unlock it for you with software.

Certainly the F3 and the S have the same engine components... any difference in HP is controlled in the ECM.

I look forward to sending mine off after I get some other issues fixed.

 

[Spyd_Piper]

:clap: Thanks for the quick reply! :2thumbs:
Which begs another question: (Sorry! pps
1.If the rev limiter is left stock: how much of an increase will be felt over the stock ECU's programming?
2. Would a modest increase in the rev limiter (let's say 8,400 rpm) Make more of a difference?
3. if so: how much?

Okay: THREE questions!

Rev Limit has nothing to do with power output.
Rev limit can extend top speed in a lower gear.
Or if peak power is above a factory rev limit or even if engine continue to pull well beyond it, then there is a benefit to raise limiter.
The 1330 continues to pull to 8800.

 

[Spyd_Piper]

Would like to know how this remapping effects the 2017 F3-S models like my D-500 (se). They're already tuned a little "hotter" and more aggressively setup (nanny etc.) than prior years. ~ Not to mention the S models also have more power stock. On that note: I've always wondered if the extra HP (on the S model) is exclusively due to ECM programming. Wouldn't surprise me.....

Years back I had friends in the radar detector business. (technicians) Their high end $300+ models had extra features that their $150 model didn't. To get those features, all you needed was a Philips screw driver. Peel off the black tape from the display and you had all the extra indicators! The electronics (antenna and everything) inside were identical!

Any Canam.

Keyword "little" hotter is fitting.

Aftermarket / performance world has different objectives than factory. Anything factory can be improved upon.